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Year 1 Phonics assessment today!

Discussion in 'Primary' started by ESLAB, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    There's a world of difference between reading the actual words and guessing from picturesand initial sounds. I'm not sure how accurate the meaning can be if you guess half the words.
     
  2. fendertele

    fendertele New commenter

    Aw shucks - thanks - but you're no fun - i prefer baiting MsZ- she sharpens my faculties and beliefs. Nice to know there are people out there who are experiencing the same reality as me though.
    It would be incredibly odd that after 25 years of expereince I had just been experiecing some kind of fluke distortion of what was happening to the rest of the Uk educational world .It is like a a surreal, huge pantomime based on the "Emporer's New Clothes The guy is as naked as a Jaybird but nobody ( or very few - ineffectively few) are saying it - either because:-
    They genuinely believe he is finely clothed - they are deluded - ( including the badly informed nobility e.g. Govt.) MsZ - i think - i hope - i prefer naivety to the following insidious creature who distorts our noble profession
    They are the self interested courtiers- because they know their own self interests lie in pandering and toadying to the Emporer - they know he is buck naked but their interests lie in maintaining the status quo - even if it is at the expense of his subjects - our children. Please tell me you are not one of these Msz. Then again you can't be - these slime balls can't be bothered with theory and ethos - they are mere words to use in interviews.
     
  3. I've already responded to this but it didn't appear because of the link in the quote (a single link by the way folks to a page of references for an article). It will appear at some future time. But meanwhile what I said was that we do not need all these references to tell us that poor readers rely more on context, the reason being that they can't decode well by the phonics route. This doesn't mean that context is a bad tool, just that you need to use it alongside phonics, so if you find phonics difficult.....Additionally, I noted that good readers use context. When they read text and find it doesn't make sense they re-read it to correct mistakes in word recognition - use of context.
     
  4. fendertele

    fendertele New commenter

    Just to save me a bit of time here MsZ. Are these all articles that "prove" that using context is a poor reading skill ( odd that - as it is all my best readers that are really good at this )
    Or is that contextual readers are not the best decoders ( as in most efficient decoders as opposed to the most effective readers) - because if that is the case that is what I started off with anyway and I don't need loads of really clever people in universities to tell me that
    Or is this a balanced array of articles taking varioius positions on the subject.
    If not I would be <u>really</u> impressed if you could provide me with an equal amount of learned journals you have read, promoting the counter arguements
     
  5. fendertele

    fendertele New commenter

    You might be surprised but i wouldn't recommend a 50% decoding rate anyway - that is 30% beyond frustration level - the level at which children turn off and lose motivation and interest - where is the relevance in an activity which requires an enormous amount of brain power and gives very little back in return - Most 4-7 year olds I know are not big on defered gratification
    Just have faith little Jimmy - in a few months or maybe a year or two - you will reap the benefits of your efforts. Meanwhile I'll read you this lovely book to you and we can play spot the digraph at 20 paces.
    I would 80 - 90% recognition is an optimum challenge level - enough to sustain motivation through success and just enough challenge to sustain development. Worked for me for donkeys.
     
  6. Fender. Just because you say you are right and claim you are running rings around others arguments doesn't mean you actually are.
     
  7. fendertele

    fendertele New commenter

    You are right I am running rings around Msz's lack of arguement - I don't really think there are really any others I am truly in contention with - but it is far too easy and basically unfair as she has not been lucky enough to have seen and experienced what I have - even more unfair for the children - unless you have something worthwhile and new to add to this circular game - and while it was fun for a while it has now become a bore and cross between pi**ing inthe wind and fishing in a barrel.
    I am lucky - I don't know I am right because of what I think - because of some idea I have received from some higher being or beings - I know I am right because I live it. I don't need your approval or any one elses - i live a living proof. To deny it would be a denial of living proof - of course you will think that arrogant - its not meant to be but then you have not lived my life and i have not lived yours - I will quite gladly change my mind if you show or tell me something that undermines my present experience- something that creates genuine cognitve dissonance and moves my mindset on.
    I don't think I am superior because of this you must understand - just lucky
     
  8. fendertele

    fendertele New commenter

    Because she has not tried a multifaceted approach - if she had she would have told me so already and that if failed abysmally and rubbed my nose in it - I don't care how long she has been teaching - if she hasn't tried a holistic approach in real life she cannot possibly have the credibility to argue her point - all her evidence on this subject is second hand.
     
  9. You are not running rings around Msz's lack of argument, she's just not bothering to argue because you're not listening. She can argue the hind leg of a donkey with someone who listens. (Or even someone who isn't really listening - but I think she's got bored.)
    I've learnt loads from listening to Msz (and others of course) and I use it on a daily basis, and I see it working with children who really struggle to learn to read.
    But I really shouldn't rise to the bait. Ah well.
     
  10. Oh, wow! In that case everyone must be right, because everyone 'lives it' .
    Personally I suspect you are really a troll.

     
  11. [​IMG]
    Here is a cute little troll. Foll-de-roll. (Sorry - feeling a bit flippant.)
     
  12. [​IMG] dillsage
     
  13. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    not my way I'm afraid fendertele I'm letting you demonstrate
     
  14. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    thanks ... truth is I went to bed with a book
     
  15. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    No I haven't read all of them but I imagine I've read more than you [​IMG]
     
  16. Me like!!!
     
  17. moonpenny

    moonpenny Occasional commenter

    I have not used the test but do similar tests as part of a diagnostic assessment process for specific learning difficulties.
    It sounds similar to the TOWRE non word reading test.
    First of all to the op, I don't think any child or their parents should be given the message of failure because they did badly in such a test at such a young age.
    It sounds as though, reading the first few pages of this thread that the overall results in general from the non word test reflect what was expected from the test by the class teachers i.e. the poorer readers had more difficulty and poorer results..
    If I was the teacher of the OPs child, rather than just reporting back to parents of failure, I would want to use this rather unusual profile of a child who appears to be able to comprehend passages of text in a book such as the books by Dahl but who is still having trouble decoding non words.
    So a further assessment such as CTOPPS which looks in further detail at phonological processing by asking the pupil to complete a more in-depth set of phonological assessments :
    Identify individuals who need help in developing phonological skills
    • Identify individuals who are significantly below their peers in important phonological abilities.
    • Determine strengths and weaknesses among developed phonological processes.
    • Document progress in phonological processing as a consequence of special intervention programs.
    • Obtain three indicators of phonological abilities:
    • Phonological Awareness Quotient (PAQ) measures an individual's awareness and access to the phonological structure of oral language;
    • Phonological Memory Quotient (PMQ) measures an individual's ability to code information phonologically for temporary storage in working or short-term memory;
    • and Rapid Naming Quotient (RNQ) measures the individual's efficient retrieval of phonological information from long-term or permanent memory, as well as the ability to execute a sequence of operations quickly and repeatedly.
    This may then provide some more answers. I would also look at any other reasons for this discrepancy - hearing i.e. glue ear, speech difficulties - I would probably not look at visual processing difficulties but that is something which may be considered in other unusual outcomes in reading tests.
    It may be that the op's child has a specific difficulty with certain areas of phonics which could be built up by targeted activities to strengthen the areas of weakness.
    She may have a profile a little like mine - absolutely fine reading complex passages of text by skimming ,scanning but that she finds the pronunciation of some unfamiliar words difficult but will be able to recognise the word because she has seen it before and knows its meaning or it is in her vocabulary and if she has a wide vocabulary, strong cognitative skills and verbal strengths there is more chance of that..
    With me, my difficulty is spelling unfamiliar complex words and this still remains a difficulty even though I am aware of it. I actually spent 2 years learning how to teach phonics so I have had plenty of practise and have the subject knowledge required - I just need to inform my phonological loop that it needs to book its ideas up. I also have a weak visual memory for the way a word looks so I can spell the same word differently in the same piece of writing and know something is wrong but can't say quite what without checking
    Sometimes with pupils this happens in reverse so they are great at decoding words and reading things phonetically but they fall down with reading comprehension and this is often due to poor working memory and failing to retain the information they have just read.
    Then of course, there are the pupils who struggle with decoding and with reading comprehension.... they are the ones who find any compensatory strategies very difficult to put in place.
     
  18. fendertele

    fendertele New commenter

    derrr! that is the format of this particular game show - it's all about people with opinions expressing them because they think/know that they are right.
     
  19. fendertele

    fendertele New commenter

    Many children can still read very well despite their inability to decode words to the arbitrary 32/40 deemed by ? to be the benchmark for phonic blending - which appears to have arisen out of the ether like some tablet of stone .<u> Can't you see its just made up stuff by some obsessed madmen/women.</u> Just like religion, monarchy,tribalism and the concept of a fair society through a meritocratic education sytem.........just as some *** have now deemed fraction of number as a reasonable concept for Y1's to grasp and 12 x 12 as the magic number to aspire to - even though 12 pence to the pound and 12 inches to the foot expired when I was 15 year old apprentice 42 years ago.
    Why do people put so much faith in the written word - it is not enough to read it and understand it - that doesn't make anyone intelligent and rational - read it by all means but please then think about it -match it up with reality and see if stands the test.
     
  20. fendertele

    fendertele New commenter

    Uncanny remblance although the hair is a little flattering.
     

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