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Winston Churchill

Discussion in 'Personal' started by MAGAorMIGA, Jan 29, 2019.

  1. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/reali...rs-morgan-ross-greer-tweet-winston-churchill/

    Good Morning Britain's Piers Morgan calls guest "revolting" in heated Churchill debate
    "It makes me sick to my stomach."

    Piers Morgan has called a Good Morning Britain guest "revolting" in a heated debate about Winston Churchill.

    The opinionated host and his co-anchor Susanna Reid welcomed Scottish MSP Ross Greer on Tuesday's show (January 29), who sparked controversy last week with a tweet in which he called former British prime minister Winston Churchill "a white supremacist mass murderer".

    Below is the tweet in question:

    Once again for the people in the back:

    Churchill was a white supremacist mass murderer https://t.co/wlOhhnJEms

    — Ross Greer (@Ross_Greer) January 25, 2019
    Related: Good Morning Britain's Susanna Reid says Piers Morgan 'targets her personally' in their on-screen rows

    Appearing on the show today, Morgan vehemently defended the deceased politician.

    "There's a younger generation... who decide to twist history to suit a narrative that people like Winston Churchill are evil people who should be condemned," he said.

    "You have not presented a single positive thought process about Winston Churchill at all.

    ‘Churchill was a white supremacist mass murderer’ - @Ross_Greer, Green Party MSP

    In a fiery debate, @piersmorgan and @susannareid100 discuss Ross Greer’s controversial comments about Winston Churchill. #GMB pic.twitter.com/pwNhlmLhty

    — Good Morning Britain (@gmb) January 29, 2019
    "You are saying the man who saved us from the Nazis was no better than the Nazis themselves."

    To Greer, he added: "You know what I find revolting, you. I find what you said about Winston Churchill and your sneering, smirking performance today as you denigrate this great national icon, I find you revolting and you offensive.

    "It makes me sick to my stomach."

    Greer – who at one point in the debate called Morgan a "snowflake" – described Churchill as a "complex character", but acknowledged he showed "strong leadership" during the war.

    And when Morgan asked Greer directly: "Do you believe that Winston Churchill was any better than a Nazi?" towards the end of their debate, Greer asserted: "Of course he was."

    Also berating Greer's choice of words, Reid even seemed to agree with Piers for once, adding: "No-one is denying that every historical hero should be scrutinised, but the use of the language is so offensive."

    First time for everything, we suppose.

    Was Greer right in his characterization of Churchill as a "Nazi"? Personally I don't agree at all. Churchill was an imperialist, a believer in white racial supremacy, in developed races ruling over undeveloped, and someone who believed in eugenics. To describe him as a "Nazi" however, is in my view a step too far. What do others think?
     
  2. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    A necessary evil.
     
  3. Ivartheboneless

    Ivartheboneless Star commenter

    Winston Churchill was imbued with the thinking of the time. Some forget that he was ancient during WW2 having been born and brought up when Victoria was on the throne. Retrospectively saying he was a white supremacist (he was), and mass murderer (debateable) is a waste of time. This does not mean I agree with Morgan, who IMHO should not be on TV at all due to his personal views and attitude.
     
    Mr_Frosty, bevdex, MAGAorMIGA and 3 others like this.
  4. neddyfonk

    neddyfonk Lead commenter

    In order to compare Churchill and Hitler you might start with their respective records on human rights. Hitler certainly failed miserably with his treatment of Jews.
     
  5. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    He was quite right. It is revolting behaviour to seek attention in this way. A public official would be wise not to advertise that he paid no attention at school, or doesn't have the wit to borrow a book on Churchill from his local library. Now he's had his five minutes of fame I doubt we'll hear of Ross Greer again. Must have been a slow news day...

    Why do you think Digital Spy is a credible source, by the way?
     
  6. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    I chose it simply because it was the top hit when I went looking for an account of the confrontation between Piers Morgan and Ross Greer, which I found out about on Twitter, but owing to the nature of Twitter I wasn't sure I knew the whole story.

    Had Churchill retired to obscurity at the age of 60 (as I intend to), he would have gone down as an essentially failed Minister in wartime, who came up with the strategically and tactically dubious Gallipoli Campaign, and a candidate for worst Chancellor of the Exchequer of all time, besides being remembered for his setting soldiers on workers (in Tonypandy in 1911 and during the General Strike). However, his actions in 1940, when already an old man (66) have earned him deserved immortality, and his sheer courage and will kept the country going. I'm glad to see debates about historical figures going on in the media, though. It's most unlikely that children learn anything about Churchill in History lessons apart from his opposition to Appeasement, and maybe, his role at Dunkirk and his making the "Iron Curtain" speech. So for controversialists to spark debate gladdens my old History teacher's heart!
     
    Brunel likes this.
  7. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    Genuine question. What did you learn about Churchill in school? What does anyone learn about Churchill in school history lessons?
     
  8. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    Battle squadron cruising the North Channel during Home Rule.
     
    sparklesparkle and MAGAorMIGA like this.
  9. Ivartheboneless

    Ivartheboneless Star commenter

    Actually, while Churchill was a bit of a loser prior to WW2, the Gallipoli campaign was not that badly conceived, but the "execution" of it was completely botched. It may have been a bit tactically dubious, but the deadlock on the Western Front costing hundreds of lives a day was a shocker. The problem with Gallipoli was losing the element of surprise. Once the warships had been lost to mines it should have been forgotten, but the flaming idiots went ahead with the landings, but they knew we were coming.
     
    MAGAorMIGA and racroesus like this.
  10. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    I learned there wasn't any chance of him being a Nazi.

    So I learned more than Ross Greer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
    xmal likes this.
  11. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    Genuine question, not a genuine answer. What aspects of his career did you learn in school? The point I'm making is that very few people, unless they read a book on him, really know that much about Churchill. That's why threads like this one can play an educative role, and for controversialists like Greer to make extreme comments is a good thing, because it stirs up interest and forces people to justify the views they hold. Twitter is full of Churchill-was-a-saint-who-is-above-criticism posters, who, it invariably turns out, actually know nothing at all about his remarkable life and career apart from the fact they saw "Darkest Hour".
     
  12. oldsomeman

    oldsomeman Star commenter

    So often we forget that al historical figures where actually human and a product of their upbringing.
    Its easier to look back at history and interpret the events as it so pleases you.
    My old history teacher always talked about history as being multi-faceted. That when you examine a fact or event you have to try and see not just the event but the factors that led up to the event.
    For example, the Norman invasion took over England. It did but it still used the Saxon establishment laws and rules to take a grip on English life. The fact they(the Normans) where not a blessing but a conquering army and so caused death and mayhem to those who opposed.
    Or Napoleon's capture of Venice was not just capturing the city more than an exercise if grabbing as much wealth off a city for himself and France. Much of Venices art and objects still not being returned from the 'war plunder." He is called a great leader but wherever he went he decimated towns and cities and all for the 'glory' of France..and one could even argue that of Britain's colonialism conquests.
     
    Stiltskin and MAGAorMIGA like this.
  13. Weald56

    Weald56 Established commenter


    Absolutely.

    Hence the apt title of RR James biography of Churchill's political career up to 1939 - 'Churchill: a Study in Failure 1900-1939'!
     
    Dragonlady30 and MAGAorMIGA like this.
  14. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    I learned that he had crossed the floor and then went back and that he sent the RN to threaten the Northern Irish anti-Home Rulers.
     
  15. nomad

    nomad Star commenter

    A very balanced and considered opinion on 'The Scotsman'.

    It’s wrong to judge Winston Churchill, who was born in the era of the cavalry charge, by modern standards, but Green MSP Ross Greer’s claims he was a “white supremacist” and “mass murderer” were a reaction to the equally flawed, cultish devotion towards the former Prime Minister. If you read the old James Bond novels, you’ll likely be appalled by the racist language. Ian Fleming spares no adjective or pejorative term, notably in ‘Live and Let Die’, to describe black Jamaicans. You’ll still find the book in shops; the namesake film is hailed as a classic and Bond is a multi-billion pound franchise. Ross Greer MSP has committed a cardinal sin in applying modern standards to a historical figure like Winston Churchill. Of course, Churchill said things that are distasteful to modern sensibilities – he was born in the age of the cavalry charge and died when The Beatles were at their global zenith. Looking back with the benefit of today’s social development is a pointless exercise in reactionary politics. Mr Greer tweeting that Churchill is a “white supremacist” and a “mass murderer” betrays the opportunity for legitimate criticism in favour of short-term shock value.

    Churchill’s nomenclature is undoubtedly prejudiced in places. His actions are equally capricious, but they do not justify a blanket, superficial censure. It’s true Churchill endorsed gas in Iraq, but he supported its use to stun rather than kill. He praised Benito Mussolini, and even Adolf Hitler as being good for their respective countries when it was fashionable to do so in the 1920s. The Gallipoli Campaign in 1915-16 ended Churchill’s career at the Admiralty, he deployed the ‘Black and Tans’ into Ireland in 1920 as Secretary of State for War, restored Britain to the Gold Standard in 1925 as Chancellor, which is all to say nothing of his conduct in World War Two. The bombing of Dresden in 1945 may be remembered as the staple criticism against him, but Churchill’s leadership also provoked a no-confidence vote in 1942. Lambasting Churchill as a mass murderer is not only offensive to the victims of actual tyrants, but an inaccurate form of historiography.
     
  16. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Star commenter

    Julius Caeser was quite naughty too.
     
    bevdex and lanokia like this.
  17. BelleDuJour

    BelleDuJour Star commenter

    Greer came across as young, foolish, ignorant and hungry for exposure.
    As for Morgan, I can quite see why he said what he did. I watched the interview.
    I found Greer highly offensive and factually incorrect.
    Churchill was not perfect............he was human as we all are.................but he was the perfect person to lead the country at the time, and is the reason eejits like Greer have the opportunity to spout their nonsense publicly in the present age.
    There is no glory to be had in bad mouthing people like Churchill, who had bigger balls than Greer or any current serving MP of any party.
    So do one Greer............preferable back to school where you can brush up on your history lessons.
     
  18. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Twenty years ago... if you'd told me that 7 word tweet from someone with a poor education would merit all this... I'd have laughed [after you'd explained a ''tweet'' to me].

    Now... Greer just shows his lack of education... Morgan is a blowhard eejit...

    Our national discussion is reduced to ill educated fools verbal bashing each other with lexical boomsticks.
     
    Laphroig and sparklesparkle like this.
  19. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    What gas was available to stun people on the battlefield?
     
  20. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    Tear gas, by Jove.
     
    nomad and lanokia like this.

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