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Will Brexit end....?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Mr_Ed, Nov 16, 2016.

  1. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    However they can put constraints that they know will favour one bidder over another- e.g. the ability to deliver certain aspects. When we issued a tender for the replacement of £1/4m worth of kit factors that we considered included offering training, removal of the replaced items. The local company could offer those things the main competitor (Swiss) laughed and said we're XXXXX we don't need to do that. The local company got it.
  2. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    See my post above re procurement. (BTW I expect we had a very big hand in writing those rules)
    Free movement- most of our migrants come from outside the EU and we do have control over that- we just choose not to exercise it.

    Now since we already have much more control in those two areas than we choose to exercise let's try that again:
    What do you think Brexit will give us that we don't already have and that you actually want?

    BTW- what do you have against free movement of labour?
  3. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Star commenter

    That was pre Maastricht. It's free movement of people now.
    Burndenpark likes this.
  4. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    And without the various resistance movements in the occupied countries that invasion would have been much more difficult, not to mention that without the various people who came here after their countries were invaded the defence of the UK would have been harder going.

    Is it worth mentioning Churchill's preference for the soft underbelly when talking about invasions of Europe?


    Just tell me again how alone did we stand- Just Ingeralnd wasn't it... at least based on your other posts on the subject?
  5. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    Resistance movements played a vital role in causing as much disruption to the German war effort as possible. We supplied the resistance movements in France and elsewhere and used them as well to spy on the Germans. Escaping POW's also relied heavily on them. We remained undefeated (open to interpretation) and stopped the Luftwaffe during 1940/41 and that was a major turning point in WW2. We used the services of those who managed to escape from their countries (prior to defeat by Germany) to very useful effect.
    We as a union of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland and Commonwealth nations stood alone in the west, middle east and far east until the USA got itself ready. I never belittle our major contribution in WW2 or indeed WW1.
  6. nixmith

    nixmith Established commenter

    When you say "....we just choose not to exercise it." I think you mean the politicians choose not to exercise it..... Had they done so, had non-EU migration been massively reduced then I would have not had such a problem with the numbers coming in from Europe and may have supported remain. But they didn't so I didn't. I remember in one of the pre-referendum debates David Dimbleby really going after one of the Tory/Remain people - it might have been Cameron himself - on this topic and he had no answer.

    In fact it wasn't until the build up to the Brexit vote that I actually found out what these non-EU/EU migration figures were and I actually felt the government were using our membership of the EU as an excuse: sort of saying that well we can't reduce the numbers because of free movement hoping we wouldn't realise that more than half - as you say - we could control, but didn't (& don't get me started on illegal immigrants). So when Brexit won I was partly elated because I thought - well you can't hide behind (free movement) any longer, after 29/3/19.

    The other is the obvious one: as a rich country people move here - young guys - live ten to a house, take a low paid job, exist frugally and send half their pay back home where it is worth 10x more thus suppressing the wages of British people who can't live like that, nor have people elsewhere, in a different economy that can benefit from these wage differentials. I don't think we should be 'stealing' trained nurses & Drs from other parts of the world too, we should train our own. Finally, we are short of housing & round here our roads are often gridlocked because the population increases - due to immigration and the high birthrates amongst these immigrants - has added to our population at an unsustainable rate.


    "Alp Mehmet, vice-chairman of think-tank MigrationWatch, which campaigns for tighter controls on migration, said: ‘This is another factor indicating how migration is contributing huge numbers to the population.

    ‘The sound another warning bell about the impact of mass immigration. The consequences of this are increased pressure housing, schools and the NHS and the changing nature of our society.

    ‘This is indicative of the scale and speed that it is all happening and it can’t be in the interests of this country and it is certainly not what the majority of people in this country want.

    ‘The Government must honour its manifesto commitment to reduce net migration to sustainable levels'."
    lexus300 likes this.
  7. EmanuelShadrack

    EmanuelShadrack Star commenter

    Agreed (but just for the record, I did/do support Remain).
  8. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    Yes, let's get rid of all those nasty foreigners, coming over here, taking our jobs etc etc...What have they ever done for us?

    Well, there's the NHS...

  9. nixmith

    nixmith Established commenter

    Do the British people get ill whilst the migrants are 100% healthy? Well the last time I sat in a hospital waiting room - yes - the staff all seemed diverse, but so did all the patients sat with me...

    P.S. Do British people get old whilst the migrants don't? What is going to happen 40-50 years down the line?
    border_walker and lexus300 like this.
  10. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    I think you'll find a lot of those who come here to work are younger, and naturally healthier, than much of the 'British' population...
  11. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

  12. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    For a balanced examination of the factors to consider when looking at the fiscal effects of migration, I found this interesting:
  13. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Star commenter

    I think it needs to be llomed at over a 60 year time frame rather than current year.
    lexus300 likes this.
  14. Mr_Ed

    Mr_Ed Lead commenter

    It isn't just about money though. Sometimes people want to live around people with a similar culture to themselves - shock - horror. Does anyone criticise China for its lack of diversity? Or Japan? Or Saudi Arabia! Yet somehow we have to be 'multi-cultural' and a plague upon your houses, if you don't agree with that.
    border_walker and lexus300 like this.
  15. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    First of all, Japan imported much of its classical culture from China and that influence persists to the present day. For example, the complex writing system over there includes thousands of Kanji or Chinese characters, like 日本人 , which combines the Chinese characters for 'sun', 'origin' and 'person' to create the word 'Japanese' (as in 'Japanese person'). So the Japanese language clearly exhibits 'multi-cultural' influence.

    Turning to Japanese religion,'Buddhism' takes its place alongside the indigenous faith of Shinto in terms of its prominence. But that's an import too. For example, all that fuss to do with Zen art and martial art forms like archery, calligraphy, tea ceremony and Zen gardens that are thought to be so uniquely and distinctively Japanese, are again heavily influenced by China, Korea and ultimately India. Google the name 'Bodhidharma', the Chinese term 'Ch'an' and the Korean word 'Son' for the back story on that.

    Additionally, although it is true to say that forms like, say, 'sado' or tea ceremony have acquired their own special flavour as it were, and have morphed in delightful ways and manners reflective of the substantial contributions made by characters like Sen no Rikyu, for example, the influence of Chinese philosophical Taoism is still utterly prevalent, and crops up in the very name of this practice. The 'do' in Sado, for example, includes the character 道, the 'Tao', 'way' or 'path' of doing something. Ditto the 'do' in Kyudo or archery.

    One thing that visitors to Japan might have noticed is that Christmas is celebrated, though it is not a public holiday, while Valentine's Day also holds significance. So that's still more 'multi-cultural' influence and 'diversity'. Christianity may be a minority faith in Japan but moviegoers and Scorsese fans might have picked up on that if they saw the movie 'Silence', an adaptation of a brilliant novel by the Catholic author Shusaku Endo.

    Finally, there's tempura, an example of Portuguese cuisine raised to superlative standards if you know the best places to go out there.

    Hopefully, that's enough examples (for now) to demonstrate that the example of Japan may not have been the best choice.

    Turning now to Saudi Arabia, perhaps this is a culture where a bit of 'multi-cultural' influence and the encouragement of 'diversity' might go down well, especially when the school textbooks contain sentences like 'The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath, while the swine are the Christians, the infidels of the Communion of Jesus.' And maybe an injection of post-Bitter Lake multi-culturalism could have prevented the spread of toxic Wahhabism around the globe, and ultimately the rise of al-Qaeda and ISIS.

    Okay. Rant over. Though I will finish with this.

    It's not often I align myself with Elton John and I do think that cogent arguments can be made for Brexit, but apparently he recently said this:

    '“I’m ashamed of my country for what it has done. It’s torn people apart … I am sick to death of politicians, especially British politicians. I am sick to death of Brexit. I am a European. I am not a stupid, colonial, imperialist English idiot.”

    Sometimes, I suspect that some (not all) of those opposed to multiculturalism are like that because they are myopic cultural philistines seeking to justify and rationalize their ignorance and incuriosity about the world around them. And when I think that I find myself in agreement with that last sentence of John's.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
    Geoff Thomas and Burndenpark like this.
  16. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    You are far to observant for your own good;) The open borders brigade do not see what you see.
    border_walker likes this.
  17. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    Made me smile this did. My son lived and worked in Japan (Tokyo) for almost 4 years, he met some lovely Japanese people and unfortunately just as many who were extremely hostile to foreigners. Japan is not the culturally diverse place you are suggesting, well, Tokyo is not anyway. Having said all of that he still talks about Japan with affection. He was impressed by many things he saw and also not impressed by other things. He is a six footer BTW and doors to trains were a problem when he was in a hurry;)
  18. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    WE did ever so much, by we I assume you mean the Allies and not the British?
    The resistance movements also did a lot for themselves, and some were heavily supported from Russia, hence so many countries teetering towards or going Socialist/ Communist after the war.

    So it was just "England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland and Commonwealth nations" By "Commonwealth nations" I assume you mean:
    In 1939 the British Empire was a global power, with direct or de facto political and economic control of 25% of the world's population, and 30% of its land mass.[3]

    So yeah- it was only 1 in 4 people on the planet standing alone against Germany, Italy and japan.

    You are forgetting again those countries that had been invaded, not to mention home-grown opposition, Italy particularly suffered from that- with memorials in Italian cities honouring the partisans equally to the fascists and in roughly equal numbers.
    So that was only 25% or the worlds population with support from lots of others- such as China, Ethiopia, Poland, the Low countries, France and a few others...

    Apart from about 1/3 of the worlds population we were all alone.:rolleyes:

    So no you don't "belittle our major contribution in WW2 or indeed WW1" you either belittle or are ignorant of the contributions of very many others- by pushing the "we stood alone" narrative
    Geoff Thomas likes this.
  19. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    Where does he now live? How sensible/stupid he is is a matter of opinion IMO.
    The United Kingdom is probably the most culturally diverse nation in Europe, the problem is NOT diversity it is overwhelming numbers and the gradual and remorseless destruction of national identity.
    nixmith and border_walker like this.
  20. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    I leave those other nations to defend their own positions regarding their contribution (or lack of) during the second world war. I am proud of the British and commonwealth countries contribution and it goes without saying any other nationality that fought within our armed forces. We remained resolute and fought hard for the whole of the war, when many failed to do so. I think it is worth mentioning that the much lauded Russian contribution was after the (deafening silence of) the German/Soviet carve up.

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