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Will a PGCE (Non-QTS) allow me to teach overseas? I already have QTS and three years experience...

Discussion in 'Teaching abroad' started by daniel_laddiman1, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. daniel_laddiman1

    daniel_laddiman1 New commenter

    Hi everyone,

    I am a recently qualified secondary school maths teacher with QTS. I am looking to teach in NewZeland, Australia or Canada but have discovered I cannot qualify as a teacher in these countries without a PGCE…

    I have read a lot of posts about the iPGCE offered at the university of Sunderland and Nottingham, etc. These are approximately £4-6,000. Ironically I have read these are not accepted in NewZeland or Australia due to their ‘international’ context. However, I have come across a ‘distance learning’ PGCE at the University of Cumbria that is less than £1,600 . This doesn’t have the international component and would therefore appear similar to any other PGCE universities around the UK.

    Do people think this qualification would allow me to teach in the commonwealth countries? I have attached a link below for you to view the University of Cumbria PGCE: https://www.cumbria.ac.uk/study/courses/postgraduate/postgraduate-certificate-in-education-non-qts/

    A final thing to add: I have already contacted the educational councils in New Zealand and Australia. Both are unable to inform me if the above course is sufficient. I was initially nervous about the ‘distance learning’ element, believing this insufficient to qualify. However, the university of Cumbria has informed me that the certificate will not say distance learning and only ‘PGCE’. So what do people think to my dilemma? Has anyone else been successful with their application using this certificate?

    Thank you,

  2. february31st

    february31st Established commenter

    The only qualification that count in these countries are the full time University based PGCE and BEd.

    There is no shortage of applications from overseas teachers wanting to work in these countries so they can very specific on the qualifications they accept. NZ and A also prefer UK teachers to have completed their NQT/Induction to satisfy themselves that the applicant is a fully capable candidate.

    Canada has even more obstacles in your way as you need your teaching qualification validated by a University in the province you will work in. Then you need to complete missing obligations in your study to be able to teach, eg are you fluent in french, Canadian History and cultural studies.

    You can still work in NZ, A at a private school but not in the public sector.

    You will have to contact NZ, A House and ask them to validate the Cumbria University PGCE qualification.
  3. MrMedia

    MrMedia Star commenter

    It’s tricky. I sometimes have to write letters specifying the amount of teaching time contained within a PGCE. Australia is one of those places.

    What you must see if that any 60 credit L7 education course is a PGCE.

    At the start of my recruitment speech I always set out to applicants that they will require a PGCE in many circumstances if they want to go abroad to work and to not be beguiled by the QTS only courses.

    The above advice is sound. It is a tricky thing you face.
  4. taiyah

    taiyah Occasional commenter

    Go to page 9 of the forum titled 'Teaching in Australia/NZ'. You will unfortunately find that it is extremely difficult and expensive.

    Australia, Canada, NZ and the USA does not fall into your usual net for international teachers. Far more stringent when it comes to what type of accepted qualifications from approved universities.

    If you are eligible for a passport in any of these countries with established educational boards AND you have £20k+ to fund all your living bills, lodging and mandatory courses you need to do then go for it.
  5. T0nyGT

    T0nyGT Lead commenter

    I can help a little with Australia although there are some people from Smart Teachers who hang around the forums and know more than me:

    1) The AITSL are the ones who check your qualifications etc. On the website they are that they need a letter from your university staying which age groups you taught during your training. They require a number of hours of teaching practice in the classroom and without this they don't verify your qualification. You will need to prove this and so there's no way to get around it.

    2) You may have some luck in very remote areas in schools that can sponsor your visa but you won't be able to choose your location. You'll just have to go where the jobs are, and remote in Australia means remote.

    3) For a permanent visa, you will need at least 70 points which are allocated accorisng to experience. It's not easy. I have 75 and that required 8 year's experience, a PGCE and a perfect score on a PTE-A English exam. Competition for immigration is extreme for some jobs such as accountants which pushes the immigration requirements up all the time.

    The international scene is full of Canadian teachers because jobs are so difficult to come by there.

    New Zealand has a genuine teacher shortage and easier immigration process but very poor wages.
  6. daniel_laddiman1

    daniel_laddiman1 New commenter

    Thank you all for your assistance.

    It sounds like it is worth taking the PGCE (non-QTS) course and trying my luck- e.g. seeing if I can contact schools (in rural areas) directly. Canada does not seem to be an option as the job market is far too competitive.

    Do you know if a Masters in Mathematics Education would assist my application? Or are qualification councils looking specifically for a PGCE with full time university attendance?

    Thank you again for your support in replying!
  7. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    OP, how would you feel if you were in the opposite situation?

    Most of us have a PGCE or BEd. If you put in the hard work to get these qualifications, would you think it fair to make an exception for someone like yourself?

    As your subject is maths, you will find an international job with the qualifications you already have. And if you're a good teacher, it could even be in a well-regarded school. Why restrict yourself to countries which don't want you?
  8. tjh102

    tjh102 Occasional commenter

    I'm not sure if you read the original post properly, or perhaps it is me who misread it.

    The original poster has QTS - they have worked hard to do it, whatever route that may be. I would assume probably SCITT or something similar. I don't see how that is any "less" than the PGCE I did, just a different route. The way your post reads, you make it sound like PGCE / BEd people should look down their noses at the original poster, which I think is rather uncalled for. School based training is just as demanding as a university based one. This poster is fully qualified with QTS, so should be treated completely equally to other UK qualified teachers. That is why most international schools will say PGCE with QTS or equivalent.

    Unfortunately, it seems like this is not the case for NZ, but I still feel the comment about "hard work" which implies laziness of people taking alternative routes, is really mean spirited.
    claireekeech27 likes this.
  9. T0nyGT

    T0nyGT Lead commenter

    You could contact schools directly. Nothing to lose there. Go to the immigration website and look for the postal codes eligeable for a 482 visa. These are the places you can get a sponsored shortage visa.
  10. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    I didn't suggest that the OP was lazy. Teaching placements are hard work, whether they are undertaken via a university or not. But on my PGDE I had to go to lectures and write essays as well as undertaking three school placements. The alternative routes aren't even recognised in Scotland and Northern Ireland, let alone other parts of the world. So I'm afraid you are incorrect in saying they are equal. QTS is manifestly not the same thing as a PGCE/PGDE. If they were, the OP wouldn't have this dilemma.
  11. february31st

    february31st Established commenter

    QTS was invented to break the teachers unions and flood the education business with cheap labor.

    Half the teaching jobs in England no longer require any formal training or qualifications. Some countries have a different view on teacher training and qualifications.
    nemo., Stiltskin and sparklesparkle like this.
  12. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    Scotland and Northern Ireland still have teaching councils which protect the interests of their members. This is why the non-university route isn't recognised.
  13. the hippo

    the hippo Lead commenter Community helper

    daniel_laddiman1, an overweight and smelly hippopotamus has sent you one of those silly TES "Conversation" things.

    At the risk of provoking the wrath of T0nyGT, perhaps I ought to mention another major disadvantage for those who are thinking of teaching in New Zealand: absurdly high house prices.

    If Canada, Australia and New Zealand are all "no go" areas, daniel_laddiman1, then yes, you definitely need to contact that stinky swampdweller.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    T0nyGT likes this.
  14. willow78

    willow78 Occasional commenter

    I went through the GTP route, I had to teach an 80% timetable full time for a full year in a very tough school as well as produce a 10 folder of evidence, both the placements routes and PCGE are equally tough in their own way. My route was so hard mentally and physically at times, but IMO it was much better preparation than sitting in a university lecture theatre or writing an essay.

    The routes should be equal and based on having QTS rather than a PGCE like they are in most countries in the world.
    tjh102 likes this.
  15. the hippo

    the hippo Lead commenter Community helper

    Well, willow78, perhaps the GTP route may be hard or it could be easy or something in between. I really do not know much about these things and I am happy to accept your opinion on the matter. However, the real question is whether or not most international schools will be happy to accept someone who has not done a PGCE. My guess is that some will and some won't.
  16. taiyah

    taiyah Occasional commenter

    Basically you need a 4 year degree to be a qualified teacher in one of your preferred destinations, Australia. Completing a masters in education a good idea BUT....Big BUT. You need to make sure that is completed in a recognised university. I know somebody who had a UK masters (in education and British) but wasn't recognised because his transcripts didn't actually meet the requirements... In other words, their mickey mouse masters from a certain university was pretty much useless.

    Completing this is one of many hurdles and expense. After this you will need to complete and pay for a course that is designed for you to understand the ATSI culture and their educational needs.

    Good luck.
  17. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    I had to produce three folders of evidence and two of my three placements were in tough schools. One had a drugs problem and assaults were common in the other. On top of this I had to attend lectures, study a specialist topic, complete a group project and write two 5000-word essays. In Scotland, the powers that be would like all teachers to have Masters degrees and the current PGDE goes some way towards this.

    Whether you think this is good preparation or not is immaterial. The fact is that your GTP training isn't equivalent and nor should it be. It has no academic content. (And by the way, it's a mystery to me how anyone could be adequately trained if they haven't studied methods for teaching their own subject.) If you want to argue about this, I suggest you contact the GTCS and the GTCNI. They will confirm that you can't teach in Scotland or Northern Ireland unless you have a degree in your subject and a postgraduate teaching qualification. Teaching councils are made up of teachers and they have decided your training isn't adequate.

    You are incorrect in saying that a GTP-type qualification is how teachers are trained in most of the world. In many countries, such as France or Russia, teachers qualify by taking public exams in education. A PGCE is taken to be the gold standard in many parts of the world because it combines both practical and academic training.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  18. T0nyGT

    T0nyGT Lead commenter

    What is the course you mention in your last sentence? I've never heard of such a thing and nothing is mentioned on any site I can find about this being a requirement
  19. february31st

    february31st Established commenter

    Many countries require additional studies for teachers, in Australia/Canada/New Zealand I should imagine it would cover the needs of indigenous people. In some provinces of Canada you will need to be fluent in French.

    It nearly 15 years since I taught in a classroom in England, but I am still eligible for a visa to Australia and New Zealand due to my BEd and completing my NQT/probation.
  20. T0nyGT

    T0nyGT Lead commenter

    Unfortunately, with Australia, 'eligeable for' and 'likely to get invited' are two very different things. The points requirements have gone crazy over the past couple of years. 3 years ago you could have gotten an Aussie visa on the strength of your PGCE and a few years experience alone. Now you need over 8 years experience and a to score English test (which sounds far easier than it is) to have a chance

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