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Discussion in 'Jobseekers' started by scienceteacha, Aug 18, 2012.
NQTs are cheap and I guess we are easier to mould in to the type of teacher a school would want? If schools went for experienced teachers rather than NQTs, we wouldn't really stand a chance which isn't fair.
that's why our last appointment was a lady on ups2 then
PM me your school if you like if in the Midlands and I'll keep my eye out for science jobs!
Last two rounds of recruitment at my primary school have specified no NQTs. They are often hard work and unpredictable! (I was taken on as an NQT though!)
The reason teachers are struggling to get jobs is because there a too few jobs and too many teachers applying for them. In my area (north west) there are 70+ applying for secondary and 150-200+ applying for a primary job. It is true that many schools have budget constraints (what council run organisations dont?!) but it's unfair to generalise and say that all schools only employ NQT's.
I was made redundant in August 2011 and started doing supply wholly in the special sector (I had experience teaching PE in this sector and much preferred it to mainstream teaching) From the experience I got on supply I got 8 interviews last year, losing out (almost always) to people who were already teaching at the school on supply- now there is your competition (candidates who know the school/have taught the class etc...), not always NQT's. The exceptions were three of my interviews which all went to people with more experience.
I am UPS 1 and thought like you I would be too expensive but I got a job over NQT's/internal candidates for September. I do feel it is harder for the more expensive as you have to justify your worth and some schools simply cant afford anybody other than NQT's, but from my experience and knowledge of schools hiring practices (as an advisory teacher) this is usually not the case. Most heads I know want the best for their pupils and the more knowledgable/experienced candidate who portrays this well at interview will get the job.
This is just my experience and people may have different views but I really think that 'all jobs are going to NQT's' is one of the least relevant reasons for not getting a job. Keep trying, do everything you can to 'show your worth' and you will get there !
OK. 90% of them?
There is truth there, a fresh faced graduate of 22 is more likely to be a nodding dog to the OFSTED tick box than an embittered 52 year old on UPS3 (not me by the way, I'm M6 in my 30s)
All I'm asking is they go for both. In equal amounts.
My worry with this forum is that an experienced teacher might decide there's just no point - to the detriment of the school that might have employed them and to their own personal and professional life.
This is going to be a really popular point of view but have some of you considered the NQT was just better than you were, and that's why they got the job?
I don't think all new posts go to Nqts but the a large majority do. I have spoken to a number of Heads and deputies at secondary level and been told given the Nqts are of good quality in the present climate they will appoint them over an excellent experienced teacher.
The NQT in my last interview could not play an instrument nor read or write music but was given the job of teaching music from KS3 to KS5 when I could play 4 instruments including piano and guitar and am a trained singer, compose, arrange etc. I am particularly talented in arranging differentiated scores so that I can get less able musicians performing live etc. I can do this in a variety of popular genres.
But he was younger and energetic, his English was very poor, his speaking voice was weak (therefore he couldn't be a good singer/lead a good choir or develop students' voices, I know a lot of about voice having trained with leading voice professors both of speech and singing) but he was overly confident.
Certainly not better than I was as a musician but much younger and of course male, which helps. Suppose you're gonna say he was probably a better teacher. But I doubt it. There was another applicant who I thought was probably a better profile than me but he wasn't an NQT like this one was so he didn't get the job.
I am an NQT (over 40) and have lost out in 2 interviews as they decided to employ an experienced teacher. One interview consisted of 4 NQTs and 1 experienced!!!
There are about one third of my fellow trainees that haven't got a job for September and it seems that the younger students have had no problems getting a job but us 'mature' students are struggling!!!
I wouldn't ever say that - I dispute the idea that someone's lack of qualifications actually make them a better teacher (as one reasonably well-qualified herself.)
What I do urge people to do though is not to make assumptions or generalisations.
It doesn't take much to realise that it won't take long for an NQT to make their way to the top of the payscale, and besides, especially if you teach English or Maths, all it can take is ONE bad teacher to send the results flying downhill and for a Head to ultimately lose his or her job; while some subjects don't have this importance they still affect results and, if you employ a bad teacher for optional subjects at KS3, the HOD could find not many students take this at KS4, affecting his or her own job. I don't teach primary but it's the same there - a bad teacher in (say) year 4 could have a huge affect on the way the school is perceived locally.
That said, schools like NQTs and it isn't really a financial thing either (ime) - I have NEVER heard "oh we can't afford her" said as part of the shortlisting process!
I briefly worked as HOD at a small 11-16 comprehensive and I was the first new member of staff to walk through the doors in 5 years. The school was VERY cliquey and had had a tendency to put TAs who already worked there through the GTP programme, with the result that the overwhelming majority of staff had worked there for decades.
It might sound great, but it wasn't - it was like a stagnant pond and had a stale and tired feel to it, with no new ideas or approaches ot energy - there were quite a few non-specialists teaching various subjects as if they needed a new teacher, heaven forbid they advertise - they would recruit a TA to do a GTP or find someone with gaps in their timetables and so on.
I left - it was too little too late, the school was in a really bad way and the current was too strong to swim against. The school subsequently went into special measures and is closing and reopening as an Academy soon.
That school would really have benefited from fresh and new and different approaches and NQTs can often offer that. They tend to be fresh out of college, enthusiastic and malleable and schools love that. It doesn't automatically mean an experienced teacher won't be appointed, I think the problem is though that schools tend to be full of experienced teachers so an NQT is something 'different.'
How did you end up without a post catbefriender if you don't mind me asking - did you relocate or something? x
scienceteacha - OK. 90% of them? (sorry don't know how to paste other posts into my own!)
It would be interesting to see an actual percentage of NQT's appointments compared to all others in the last year.
I do agree with tabath, if NQT's are good quality and the school doesn't need someone who can 'hit the ground running' more like someone who can to be 'moulded' or course they will appoint them over experience. I also feel NQT's are more up to date and there will usually be quite a few post threshold staff already at the school so in order to achieve a good mix NQT's are favourable. I do feel the best schools have a mix of all ages.
Most schools I know would usually hire someone with a couple of years experience over an NQT if they were equal and cost wasn't an issue.
If catbefriender's view re the other candidate at interview is justified then that is clearly a case of cost and a head/HOD who did not have the best interest of their pupils in mind. Maybe they thought they could mould him, HOD didn't want anyone better than them, governer said only NQT could be appointed as there was no money, maybe he could offer another subect/extra curricular, he is related to SLT/receptionist (I know of e.g's of all of these)
I dont know how you know so much about the other candidates skills (most sensible candidates at interview dont discuss their skills/knowledge with competition) you never know what the SLT are thinking and it's best to brush yourself off, think 'it's their loss' and keep on trying!
After fifteen interview rejections one does begin to feel like that. Science teachers often teach that 3 repeats is adequate for a reliable conclusion - 15 repeats should nail it?
While I am not questioning that there are some very strong candidates out there that have got the job, when this happens you don't mind so much, its when you lose to sh1te that you really start to question your own worth.
Maybe all of us decent experienced teachers that can't get a job should set up a fee paying independent school.
I had 12 interviews before getting my job last year so 13 interviews in total - I do honestly know how it feels, and it's awful. I really sympathise. I didn't give myself any credit for actually getting to the interviews though so you're obviously putting forward a strong application.
But how do you know that? It's easy to think "yeah I am the best candidate" but realistically nobody knows. I am small and slightly built and probably come across as a bit mousey in all honesty but I hang back in the head's talk and tour of the school and wait for the lesson and interview to show what I can offer, so to speak
The interview I went for usually had more NQTs there than experienced teachers because as far as I am aware each year there are more NQTs applying than experienced teachers going for a teaching jobs which are not a promotion from their current position . Whilst I was on placement there were 3 teachers who applied for jobs elsewhere and got them (2 of them were promotions to HoD/ HoKS5, one was teaching and he was on M5 I think).
If a school has to chose between a v.good NQT and a more experienced teacher, then I guess the more experienced teacher has to show just how much better they are to justify that they will be paid much more than the NQT.
Sorry, didn't realise it wouldn't automatically quote!
The interview I went for usually had more NQTs there than experienced teachers because as far as I am aware each year there are more NQTs applying than experienced teachers going for a teaching jobs which are not a promotion from their current position . Whilst I was on placement there were 3 teachers who applied for jobs elsewhere and got them (2 of them were promotions to HoD/ HoKS5, one was teaching and he was on M5 I think). If a school has to chose between a v.good NQT and a more experienced teacher, then I guess the more experienced teacher has to show just how much better they are to justify that they will be paid much more than the NQT.
I'm probably going to get shot down for this one, but I dont think it is NQTs, I think it is age related. I am an NQT in her 40s, and have failed to get a job against NQTs, older and younger experianced teachers. I do feel that often the job as gone to the younger (who can be well up the pay scale under 30) who probably hasn't got a family or other commitments yet, or has only experiance in teaching and no other industry. This makes them more malable to the schools needs and don't come in with a secure industry knowledge which frightens existing members of staff who have known only teaching. I was one of two sent home from an interview after teaching - we both had families, the rest were young free and single. The school had made it clear that they wanted someone who was going to give every living moment to the school.
Of course, there is no way of proving discrimiation due to age, or sex or anything, but it is there and it does make a difference.
I don't know if you read my earlier post mmm...Milk but it is very similar to yours. I totally agree with your comments and have had many a similar conversation with other trainees of a similar age and work experience!!