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Why do LGBT campaigners want to sexualise Primary schools?

Discussion in 'Education news' started by Vince_Ulam, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Established commenter

    Surely you could believe that gender has a physiological basis which is also influenced by the social construct of gender?
    Both ideas do not nullify each other, they are opposite ends of a spectrum of ideas.
     
  2. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    I think that @Bobbbs is presenting the views of others.
     
  3. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Established commenter

    I can understand that people have differing views of what should be covered as part of PSHE but I don't understand why this should be presented as "sexualising primary schools". Obviously sex education should be presented in age appropriate terms but at a certain point children need to know what the terms they hear bandied about the playground actually mean.
     
    LunaBlue123, agathamorse and jubilee like this.
  4. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Established commenter

    You are quite right I was talking about Gender Identity and trans issues.

    Many studies show that your trans individuals are born with a brain that has a gender incongruent with the individual's body. Unfortunately, if the society is not open to such individuals it is extremely hard for that individual to fit into that society with its ideas of Gender Identity. Transgender people find it incredibly hard to fit in as expressing themselves is so overt. This leads to depression, self-harm etc and the 40% of trans people who have attempted suicide. I suspect now that our society is becoming more accepting that that figure will plummet. Good thing too.
     
    LunaBlue123 and agathamorse like this.
  5. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Established commenter

    No it doesn't, you said see post #4 and I quoted post #4.

    No I didn't miss a thing & I know exactly what you said.

    If you had said that this refers to the views of some campaigners that are advocating sex education in primary schools, that is one thing, but you singled out those that are advocating that who are from the LGBT community and "Oh Look what other vile things some of these LGBT people are up to". Peter Tatchell is gay and hence could be described as being from the LGBT community. But being from the LGBT community has no relevance to do with his view on sex with children, conflating the two is a pretty poor way to behave IMHO.
     
    LunaBlue123 likes this.
  6. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Established commenter

    For some children, the identity that they develop/were born with and the one societal pressure forces them into are incongruent and this leads to internal conflict. It is with this conflict that any person would need help.


    No one.

    When I grew up there just wasn't anyone I could turn to.

    Societal pressure to conform is or was huge. I felt that there was no one that could help, certainly not family or friends* and so I kept everything hidden for decades. and in the days before the internet information was scarce and obtaining it brought the chance of exposure so to a large extent I went on in ignorance.

    Eventually, with my MH falling apart, I sought medical help but was told nothing was available. It was only when it became apparent that I was at risk to myself that help became available, but then there was a 2-year wait.

    If I had had some of the education that told me that it was quite rare but perfectly normal to be like myself my life would certainly have been easier and almost certainly a LOT happier.

    Education is a wonderful thing.

    I can and agree that it is a very difficult subject but the consequences of ignoring it for those individuals is terrible.

    Now that is a statement. Evidence please. You are also assuming that only people who you would consider "gay" are transgendered, it is not the case.

    One of the things holding me back from transitioning was that I knew which sex I was attracted and in my original gender that would make me heterosexual but I also knew that if I transitioned I would be unlikely to ever find a partner in my new role. I still tranistioned.

    You assume much here and show a little ignorance. Gender and sexuality are two different things.

    It is very uncommon (I do not think that it happens at all in the UK) for a child under 16 to be put onto hormone therapy or for surgery to be considered.

    After many sessions with a psychiatrist and a Gender specialist, a child MAY be prescribed drugs to put puberty on hold. This just holds back development until such time as the individual has become old and mature enough to make an informed decision.

    The advantage of this is that for all intents and purposes an individual who has these drugs and then decides not to transition will develop pretty much as they would have done had they not been placed on the drugs in the first place.

    For those that do decide to transition, they would then have not gone through the trauma of their body turned into something that they may well hate to the extent of harming it. But also if they are then prescribed hormone therapy then they will go through pretty much the same puberty as they would have done had they been born Cis-gendered and they will be pretty indistinguishable from the any other person of their gender.

    Leave it any later and the body will have changes a huge amount.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
    agathamorse and LunaBlue123 like this.
  7. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Citation needed.

    This percentage is popular in discussions around transgender issues and is usually given without a source therefore should be treated with scepticism. A closer look at the statistics on attempted suicide by people who identify as the opposite sex casts gives strongly suggests that affirmative counselling, hormone treatment & surgery increase suicidal ideation & affect in transgender people:

    [​IMG]
    Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults. The Williams Institute, 2014.

    Statistically, the risk of suicide among people who identify as their opposite sex, particularly in females who identify as males, is significantly increased by affirmative counselling, by hormone therapy and by surgery. These figures are horrifying when compared with the 5% attempted suicide rate for the overall population of the United States of America as well as with the 10-20% attempted suicide rate for people who are lesbian, gay or bisexual. This gives us reason to think that taking an affirmative approach to children whose parents present as transgender is not advisable, to say the least of it.

    Less suicide would be good.
     
  8. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Yes, the post you quoted does use 'some'. You quoted post #38. Post #38 uses 'some'.

    You quoted post #4 after you quoted post #38 in which I used 'some'. I referred you to post #4 to show that I am referring to more LGBT campaigners than Tatchell. Nowhere have I said 'all LGBT campaigners' hold these or similar views.

    If you do then you are having a bad job showing it, given that you have been speaking as though I did not use the word 'some', but also you refer to me speaking about the 'LGBT community' when I have not and I am in fact speaking about 'some LGBT campaigners'.

    I said that. See post #38.

    Nowhere have I said or implied anything about 'the LGBT community'. To think so is to think that all people with moustaches are megalomaniacal genocides because Hitler & Stalin had moustaches. You cannot dismiss the facts I have presented by dismissing your own fictions.
     
  9. SomethingWicked

    SomethingWicked Occasional commenter

    Have you/The Williams Institute considered that although yes, there is correlation between suicide and transition-related health care, the cause is in fact society/bullying? The more 'out' one is, the more identifiable a target to transphobic bullying (which in turn, gives rise to suicide). Those more 'in the closet' are less likely to be negatively affected by harmful media portrayals, etc.

    (forgive me if this has already been covered, I didn't carefully read through the preceding four(!) pages, but I also feel like these statistics have a few interpretations that need to be identified)
     
    LunaBlue123 likes this.
  10. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Children are not born with identities. A child born in Russia may be raised in the USA and never feel itself to be Russian. Identical twins do not always share sexuality or a gender identity. At most children are born with characteristics but there are no characteristics by which to differentiate a straight person from a gay person. Identities are adult constructions.

    Then how did you become who you are today? You will have adopted social representations in the construction of your identity. Everyone does, it is impossible to be raised within a society and do otherwise.

    There are third sector organisations who seek out and mentor young people & parents of children who are gender nonconforming and train them to think of themselves & their children in this way via encouragement to social transition and hormonal therapy. This is why gender identity clinics have seen such a huge increase in clients in recent years.

    I did not speak to this dichotomy but in fact both gender & sexuality are informed by sex.

    It happens to British children thanks to third sector organisations, and even if it had only happened once then that would be too many times:

    Taxpayer-funded transgender charity which offered same-day hormone treatment for children is banned from contacting family after mother forced her son, seven, to live as a girl
    DailyMail.co.uk, 8th October 2017.

    This is not good for children, don't you agree?

    Often claimed, never shown. In fact these drugs are risky enough for adults - which we would expect given that these drugs are used to treat cancers - leading to cognitive & affective problems, decreased skeletal mineralisation, stunted growth, diabetes, headaches and actual brain damage at the pituary gland. Even were a child to experience the minima of these side effects then there are other problems e.g. children will develop insufficient tissue to enable phalloplasty or vaginoplasty.

    This has not been shown by any direct study but has been inferred from studies of delayed puberty due to natural & environmental factors which the body has evolved to anticipate, contrary to cancer drugs. Punctuated puberty is a nice idea for some advocates & enterprising clinicians but the human body is not a games console on which we can press pause and then expect error-free resumption when we press play.
     
  11. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Yes, social stressors are considered as a factor but suicidal ideation & affect increase in people who want or have had affirmative counselling, hormonal therapy and surgery designed to help anticipate these stressors. If these affirmative interventions were healthy then they would reduce suicidal ideation & affect, not increase it. These interventions are not trivial things, negative effects will be almost inevitable.

    This is fine. I linked to the Williams report but realise that it can be a long & difficult read.
     
  12. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Established commenter

    WR that table does not show what you are stating it does, it may look like it supports your position but without further reading further, it is meaningless.
     
  13. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    No, I say what it shows. Suicidal ideation & affect is more pronounced in people who identify as transgender who want or have had transgender affirmative counselling, hormonal therapy & surgery.

    [​IMG]
    Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults. The Williams Institute, 2014.

    Sad but true.

    There is further information. I have cited the report & linked to it via the table.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  14. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Established commenter

    Ahh if you read the executive summary.

    It makes it clear that those TG people who disclose their status are more at risk of suicide attempts.

    You would need to disclose in order to be treated.

    But disclosure would also risk rejection from friends, family and work thus raising the risk of suicide the link is not what you describe or what the report states.
     
    LunaBlue123 likes this.
  15. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Established commenter

    Are you trying to say that someone with gender dysphoria is due to adult interference?
     
  16. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    I addressed this upthread. See stressors.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  17. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    I did not mention gender dysphoria in the passage you quoted.
     
  18. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Established commenter

    No it isn't. It is because society has become more accepting and people feel able to disclose and ask for help. In the past information was hard to come by and society was very discriminating. It was only a couple of years ago that Stonewall started to support TG people.

    (Ironic and shameful really as the Stonewall riots started when TG people were arrested for wearing clothing of the "opposite" gender)


    Err no they are not.
     
    LunaBlue123 likes this.
  19. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Happy Pride weekend everybody !

    [​IMG]
     
  20. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Established commenter

    Indeed that is a terrible article. A real indictment of British tabloids at their best. Who cares if the story is true or not get an inflammatory headline and pander to our reader's prejudices, that will sell some copies.

    The Daily Mirror stole/borrowed the article from the Times

    https://www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling/?id=18904-17

    The article was factually incorrect.
     

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