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When you listen to the pupils too much it can be disastrous for a school

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by garyconyers, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. Sorry GP did'nt mean to sound patronising in any way, It's just that support networks are my thing. I advise our LA on cracking behaviour using support regeimes,they work very well.
     
  2. gameplayer

    gameplayer New commenter

    I'm fully supportive of the 'support ethos' I've spent hours supporting tearful staff and ranting staff but if someone can't cope with the job ....

    ....you can put a goldfish in a kennel but however much support it gets it still won't bark
     
  3. I agree that there will be some people that will not be up to the job, this should be apparent very early in their career, however if this golgfish has been barking sucessfully for a number of years then it is usually something recent that has gone wrong, that can be put right. Sorting stuff like this is what SM & Heads get paid for and highlights why they should be very carefully picked.
     
  4. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    It is reassuring that so many of you agree with my views expressed in the OP. Its all well and good listening to children, and I agree that this is important, but only up to a point........

    I only wish that Magicclass could point out to us all why we are so very wrong and how you can never listen to children too much.

    Hopefully he will be well enough soon to come back and explain to us all.
     
  5. wattie- you successfully described the SMT at my place. Young, inexperienced (in non-teaching roles) and as a result, keen to boost their status by adopting short term schemes.

    No one will become a HT or DH without careful consideration today because there are too many bodies to answer to.

    It's wrong, but it's he world we live in. Pupils assessing staff WILL become more 'acceptable' over the next few years but pupils CAN'T cope with this switch in role. It's a dangerous for the profession




    ...can't believe I have 35yrs 'til retirement.
     
  6. *it's a dangerous future for the profession...
     
  7. Exactly right Bookwork, I often go to DH & HT meetings and speak to young/new heads and none of them have got a long term plan to stay in headship. They see the post as a stepping stone to consultancy,Inspection, higher management at LA, Etc Etc...... They look at three to five years tops.
    In short they want to join "those bodies" you speak of (lots of power, little regulation)

    It worries me that somone as young thinks nothing can be done - Why are we paying out union fees????
    If we stopped, our (unregulated)friends that hang out in plush hotels in London/Birminham would need to move quickly to defend us (if for nothing else to protect their own jobs)

    I'm not a Communist or leftie, but I believe we have been sold down the river as of late by our unions. It seems they sit with ministers (STRB,GTC,Etc) and the question of the day is "how do we make this horrible inititave palletable to the teachers of this country" Need I mention, performance management,revised pay deal (TLRs) the GTC, constant green and white papers ETC!!!, somone has got to stop this unchecked rot

    Teaching is starting to resemble a bad sales job in the 80s, promise the world, pull em in cheap, give them a set of criteria they cant meet, work them until they have no life and watch them leave ("they had become too expensive and complained a lot anyway")
     
  8. Unfortunately pupil voice is getting to be a bigger part of ofsted. We do internal audits at our school, and unfortunately the pupil voice did me no favours. Based on what they said, I got a **** report - satisfactory and barely satisfactory. 2 years ago I got good and very good from ofsted, so it was a bit of a shock! However, it also gave me a kick up the bum, and I got myself into gear on a few issues, and now I feel I've improved. I do meet with a group of pupils to talk about the department, and they actually give me great ideas! Some of these I have implemented with great success. So, I feel pupil voice can be productive, but it's also important that at the end of the day, you as the teacher are the most important person. ALWAYS assert your status and never let them forget it!
     
  9. How can you assert your status when your simultaneously being undermined by SMT?
     
  10. Exactly, if there were any "issues" with openshh's dept, they should have been dealt with management.
     
  11. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    Still hoping Magic will return and tell us why we are all so wrong.

    (Or maybe he's sold enough already and doesn't need to).


    ;o)
     
  12. Hi Gary - still think of you too ! I will return, just mad busy at present:)
     
  13. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    Awwwwwwwwww, thanks, Magic.

    I may be bowing out of TES soon for a while because of being busy at work, family and christmas. (2 kids + extended family, etc).

    Glad you are better now, I do mean it I'm not taking the ****.



    Would love to re-start this discussion with you in the future, as I'm not sure our views differ as much as you are trying to make out.
    (See post 5 on this thread).
    (Hope you understand my 'straw man' reference).





    To remind myself to what has happened thus far:

    You were provoked by my post:

    "If malicious pupils know they have power over teachers, and can hurt them with their actions then this makes them more likely to continue with their harassing behaviour. If they know some sap is going to 'listen to them' then even more so, if they can get away with it and the teacher will be blamed."

    and replied:

    "So, someone who 'listens' to a young person is a sap? My God that says it all. "

    (I put 'listen to them' in quotes, will explain why later. This was not picked up at the time).

    I explained where my views came from - my experiences in schools so far:




    Okay, I'll tell you where I am coming from, why my views are as they are.

    When I started teaching in 1995 I cared greatly about the pupils in my care. I spent hours planning great interactive lessons, listened to them explaining why they destroyed my lessons, took their advice (the worst behaved) as to how I could better keep their interest (in detentions given for their bad behaviour).....
    They saw me as a soft target, a sap who they could take the **** out of, and did. They promised that if I took their suggestions into my planning and lessons, did activities they enjoyed they would behave.
    They lied. They repeatedly promised and never delivered. They saw it as a game to upset me, promise to behave, not behave, upset me, promise to behave........
    In 1997 I decided that I couldn't hack it as a teacher. I took a temporary job in a very tough school whilst deciding what to do. I didn't care any more, but still did the job thoroughly, planning, marking, disciplining...... but not caring, not listening to excuses.
    After a few weeks the worst classes behaved as they saw I wasn't going to be taken in like some teachers (soft touches) who cared enough to get upset when classes misbehaved.
    (What's the point of playing up if the teacher doesn't get upset?)

    I enjoyed not being wound up by malicious pupils and was asked to stay on - which I did. Other teachers who listened, cared, were gullible enough to be taken in by lying pupils had a nightmare time!


    In my experience such pupils aren't frustrated, angry or confused; more uninterested in education and looking for a target to wind up.
    (Why did I get few problems when teachers who listened/cared got treated appallingly by the same pupils?)

    In my experience the reasons behind total lack of respect for some teachers is that some teachers are not supported higher up the school : if they are not blamed for their behaviour why wouldn't it continue? After all, being bad is fun!



    Angelfish (post 9 of this thread) explains what I meant by 'listen to them' (including quotes) in the original quote by me that Magic took exception to.

    "What I've also found is that when many children say 'I just want adults to listen to me' what they mean is 'I want adults to do what I say' or 'I expect adults to believe whatever I've said.' I had this last week with an 8 year old - child punched someone after very little provocation, refused to stop, etc, got taken out of the room. After listening to him rant, I explained that X had not actually done anything, and that he would be staying in at playtime - the reply: 'You never listen to me!' "




    So there you go. My views on this issue, and responses with reasons to Magic's replies. All in 1 thread.



    As I said previously, I'm not sure what I've said that Magic takes objection to in particular.
    I've been accused of saying not to listen to pupils at all (not true) and that when I was ignored I got upset (also not true).



    Hopefully this posting makes my views clear to Magic, so when we re-start this discussion in the future we can do so without all the unfortunate misunderstandings that have gone on so far.

    Regards, and have a great Christmas Magic,

    Gary.

    :eek:)
     
  14. Hi Gary.

    Thanks so much - I hate bickering with people, much better to get on:)

    You have a wonderful Christmas too and keep in touch - emails on my website.

    Best wishes,

    Rob
     
  15. I generally agree with the tone of the post - giving kids power in the running of the school is crazy. The point about the sixth formers describing the head as safe - I'm less convinced. At my previous school the head always listened to kids sent to her and undermined teachers. The thing is though that the kids sent to the head are the bad kids, the good kids don't get this opportunity. The good kids weren't stupid could see that the head was listening to horrible kids above teachers they liked and respected, often leading to them leaving. Therefore the bad kids liked her and the good kids hated her, very frightening and unhealthy.
     
  16. Totally agree with previous post. Student voice in our school has gotten totally out of control and behaviour is awful, i think it should no longer be called "student voice" but "disruptive kids voice", or "how to get out of jail free voice".
     
  17. eha

    eha

    Post 54:
    So why don't the 'good kids' get together, go to see the Head, or ask to address the School Board, and STAND UP AND BE COUNTED?
    Mind you, this does not only apply to kids; the same could be said to staff.
    All it takes for the triumph of evil, is that good people do nothing.
     
  18. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    Hi Magic,
    hope you had a great christmas and a happy new year to you.



    I've seen you posting since Christmas so wonder if you could explain to me exactly what it is that I said that you disagree with - and why.

    Thanks, Gary.
     
  19. Hi Gary,

    I thought we'd got past all that! Happy new year to you too mate.

    To be honest it's all a long time ago and I don't want to get into all that again. Basically I think we got our wires crossed - as happens frequently with texts, emails and forum posts because the message can easily be taken in the wrong context.

    Can we just leave it at that?

    All the best for a great 2008.

    Rob
     
  20. autismuk

    autismuk New commenter

    .... you didn't answer the questions first time around is the point ....
     

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