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When and how to tell a new school I have booked a holiday during term time?

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by tiinatoelli, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. thin_ice

    thin_ice New commenter

    Yep. And they are usually retired teachers who pretend they were difficult, outspoken and opinionated but in reality kept quiet and brown-nosed their way through their career.

    Very easy to be feisty on here, after the event.
    install and CWadd like this.
  2. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    And would have more than ten with the change in resignation dates you propose!
    Lara mfl 05 likes this.
  3. meggyd

    meggyd Senior commenter

    Stiltskin likes this.
  4. les25paul

    les25paul Star commenter

    But there are other jobs equally as important as teaching and they can operate without such a rigid resignation protocol.

    I started my working life outside teaching, taught for 18 years and have now gone back to a non-teaching career where I will remain. Compared other forms of employment the recruitment and retention of teachers is very different and not as flexible. If teaching is suffering recruitment problems this could be one reason why.
    agathamorse and meggyd like this.
  5. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    It'd help highlight deeper problems in that school which would be adversely effecting the children anyway. I doubt having a minimum of half terms notice would be a problem for the majority of schools
    agathamorse likes this.
  6. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    That is what we have...with the addition you can only finish at the end of term.
    Lara mfl 05 likes this.
  7. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    Yes. I meant being able to finish at the end of any half term. 8 weeks notice. Universities manage okay without disrupting education too badly
    agathamorse and Lara mfl 05 like this.
  8. frustum

    frustum Star commenter

    Isn't the notice period in Scotland four weeks? How does it work out there?
    agathamorse likes this.
  9. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    At least the notice period stops a teacher being fired with just one month's notice. A school could save money by getting rid of a teacher just before the summer holiday in their second year of teaching so not having to pay them over the summer. and, with current employment legislation, there is nothing they could do about it. Personally, I prefer the protection long notice periods give - I once made a packet when made redundant from a job with a 12 month notice period.
  10. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    Im not so sure. Redundancy will give you a few more weeks pay but the other main reasons (conduct, behaviour, capability) are likely to lead to dismissal without notice anyway. In fact a shorter notice period may reduce the use of capability being used to push teachers out quickly, and the consequences that brings to a teachers career.

    Also if they did do as you suggest then they'd still be liable for the holiday they'd have accrued over the year (I.e. Teachers are paid x amount to work 195 days a year, pay is just split into 12 months for ease of calculations, so they'd still have to pay them over the summer - just like in industry)
    agathamorse likes this.
  11. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    Only gross misconduct can be used in law as a reason for not paying somebody for their contractual notice period. See https://www.gov.uk/dismissal.

    No, I don't think this is true. Ask the people doing maternity covers which end during July. There have been several threads about this. I think it unfair, but it happens.
    JohnJCazorla, strawbs and agathamorse like this.
  12. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    You are correct Piranha, teachers are not paid for only 195 days a year. As you say, several threads recently have cited the Supreme Court decision in 2017 (Hartley - vs King Edward College [2017] UKSC 3) that confirmed teachers pay is an annual salary and accrues at a daily rate over 365 days a year. The argument that pay only accrues over the 195 days of directed time was put to the court and expressly rejected by them. The 365 day pay accrual is also what the Burgundy Book has said for many years. Which is why if a ML contract ends in mid July the school can stop paying at that date.
  13. Lara mfl 05

    Lara mfl 05 Star commenter

    Could it be that people confuse the 195 days used to calculate supply teachers pay, at least in the old days when LAs ran supply?
    Schools were only open 195 days / 39 weeks in the year and supply teachers were only able to earn when schools were actually 'open to students'. Hence their annual pay was calculated using their pay scale annual wage and then the possible 195 days to end up with a 'daily rate'.
  14. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Yes, daily rate supply is a different type of contract altogether, but you may be right about that being the source of confusion with full time pay.
    agathamorse likes this.
  15. JosieWhitehead

    JosieWhitehead Star commenter

    I may be wrong, but of the two things, ie work or holiday, I would think that 'work' is more important as it is this which brings in money on which to live. Most teachers have to forfeit holidays in term-time I'm afraid. The class will be depending on you.
    phlogiston likes this.
  16. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    Ah this is what I meant. Full time employees are paid over the year, however are only contracted to be available for work for 195 days (stated in teachers pay and conditions document). The days outside of this are deemed as holiday periods (annual leave) which they are paid for. All employees are entitled to a minimum of 5.6 weeks holiday, although contracts can offer more (as in this case). So if a teacher fulfils the 195 days required in the year they are entitled to their full holiday entitlement. Which could also cause problems for a school trying to terminate a full time employee to end as the school ends as they could insist on taking their remaining annual leave entitlement during the notice period (the school couldn't legally refuse this, they can only define when annual leave is taken if the period is within the employees employment period).

    A shorter notice period may mean greater clarity is needed on annual leave entitlements though.

    Maternity Cover is different as it's a short term/fixed term employment and daily pay for this is/should be calculated at annual salary/195 such that they don't earn more than an equivalent full time employee over a year (as defined in the pay and conditions document). They are still entitled to the minimum statutory holiday though.
    agathamorse likes this.
  17. meggyd

    meggyd Senior commenter

    Yes agreed. In non teaching jobs people who leave in middle of leave year have their holiday entitlement calculated pro rata. So if you get 20 days annual leave and leave after 6 months you get 10 days paid leave. This should be the same for teachers. However unless you are leaving the profession you might prefer to keep your annual leave for August.
  18. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Deemed by who? I've never seen a court decision on this, do you know of one? Not deemed holiday by STPCD or Burgundy Book. STPCD specifically requires teachers to work outside their 195 days/1265 hours - "51.7 "... a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional duties, including in particular...". [Note - "must"]

    STPCD does though require schools to ensure that teachers "52.4... adhere to the working limits set out in the Working Time Regulations 1998...". Those regulations are the source of the 5.6 weeks holiday rule.
  19. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    I read that differently. 51.7 references 51.5 and 51.6 which talk about the 1265 hours and relates that there may be a need to do something outside a normal 8.15 to 3.45 day in order to complete your job. This can't be directed and doesn't mean it has to be outside the 195 days in section 51.2 so can't be defined as official working days (In industry having to work evenings/weekends also happens, and isn't counted as official working days/time).

    But no, I'm not sure of a legal precedent, however the annual leave relating to non-term time is referenced by other documents such as:
    plus the fact that in the STPCD they roll short term workers holiday pay up into their daily rate which they define as 1/195th per day. If you're not forced to work on a day and you're being paid for it, then it's surely leave?

    Like I said if they changed the notice period they'd have to be clearer in their wording on annual leave.
  20. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    *duplicate post*

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