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What's going wrong with applying jobs in teaching

Discussion in 'Jobseekers' started by sonicthehedgehog, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Middlemarch

    Middlemarch Star commenter

    This, however, is a forum wherein the sole function is the seeking and giving of advice. It's what we're here for. Moreover, the experienced heads on here are nonplussed at the suggestion that any head would appoint anyone but the candidate they believe is the best one - why would they do otherwise?

    No-one should ever post on here if all they want is people to sympathise.

  2. Yeah you do.

    I'm rejoining the discussion because its started to sound more realistic, true to life and less 'Guardian'.

    A big shake up is needed people. Employment practice needs to be monitored nationally and what's this rubbish, 'they can do it, because they can' or whatever. This is the same logic naughty kids use in badly run schools to get away with what they like, successfully, I might add.

    The plain fact is in decent society in the 21st century we all deserve fair and correct treatment, otherwise lets expose those who think its OK to treat others badly and maybe take a further step backwards and bring back the stocks!!

    Oh and by the way, incase no one has noticed I neither share opinons or tone with some folks that have replied, but again thats OK, because I can!

    Unfortunately I (we) can't be as honest as is sometimes necessary to inform others of the facts, sadly I feel that if some folks on here knew the facts they would still rattle on in 'education speak'.

    That says something about the world we live in. Again, just my opinion.

  3. Lara mfl 05

    Lara mfl 05 Star commenter

    I'm not convinced there is evidence for your assumption that people are not being treated fairly or receiving correct treatment.

    If, as people have said, there are hundreds of applicants, even quick emails to notify them of the results of their application becomes a very onerous task. Especially for busy school offices who are always busy.

    I was talking recently to a youngster who applied for a part-time job at a supermarket chain. he was told even for that job they were anticipating hundreds of people to apply (such is unemployment round here). They said not to expect any correspondence for a couple of weeks and if he was not called for interview no notification. is that unfair or 'bad practice'? No, it's sheer numbers of applicants.
  4. Middlemarch

    Middlemarch Star commenter

    Actually, I don't. I don't say what I don't mean.

    TES is full of people expressing completely contradictory opinions, driven by who they are and what they've experienced.

    On the one hand, heads "appoint the cheapest staff and unfairly discriminate against older, more expensive ones who are more experienced and therefore must be better candidates"; on the other, "I'm an NQT and I've applied for a hundred jobs and every time I get an interview, someone with more experience gets it - how am I supposed to get experience?"

    Then there's "The internal candidate always gets it" versus "I've worked my socks off at that school and I'm really good and they could have just given it to me, but they advertised and appointed someone from outside."

    As for your notion that
    - it's never going to happen, not least because there is no "law" about when, how and who schools must recruit AND with increasing numbers of schools becoming academies, there's no jurisdiction over them AND with thousands of schools generating tens of thousands of appointments, exactly who's going to do it and how much would it cost?

    I'm no longer involved in recruiting teachers to schools. But I do know that the truth remains that headteachers are the easiest staff to sack in schools, precisely because they succeed or fail according to how good their staff are. That's why heads want the best teachers.
  5. I was lucky enough to receive feedback from two interviewsafter I failed to secure either job. The first feedback was bland and non-specific; it made me feel okay about not getting the job but it didn't help me much.

    The second lot of feedback was harsher and told me what I needed to know about improving my performance at interview. I thought the headteacher was wrong about me - but of course he could only have got his inaccurate impression from me and the way I presented myself. So I took it on the chin, did something about it and got the next job I went for.

    I was particularly pleased about this because it involved setting aside my ego. There are some people in life, I have found, who constantly create huge ego bubbles around themselves which they then fill with noise. It gets them nowhere and makes them unpleasant to be near.

    Maybe that observation will be of use to someone. The best of luck to anyone who has job interviews coming up during the rest of the term. Be real, and leave your ego outside the door. ;)
  6. Sonic, it looks to you now that you have been treated unfairly but, as Lara pointed out, because of the number of applicants schools often don't have time to explain themselves and give feedback. In the absence of more information every rejected candidate might start forming their opinion on what really happened and, potentially, twist the truth.

    I used to work in finance before I switched to education and can tell you that the the selection process is even more brutal in the private sector. You haven't heard anything? You know that you haven't been shortlisted/successful at an interview. Feedback? Forget it. As for discrimination - I still think schools are pretty good compared to what's out there :). In private sector, big companies often hire external agencies to do the early stages of the application process for them. I have heard horror stories such as "If I can't pronounce a name on an application form - I bin it" or "I go through the first x applications and if I find enough to make the shortlist I bin the rest" etc.

    I do not condone any of it - or believe everything for that matter - but would this ever happen in a school?

    In schools, people involved in hiring are not strangers who get paid a hefty commission for putting a shortlist on the manager's desk out of which he will choose a good, but perhaps not the best, candidate.

    The head teachers are truly interested in finding someone who is best for the job. They are choosing their future colleagues, the school's reputation is their responsibility. Their jobs are at stake, isn't that so?

    Please give it time, I am sure you will get over the rejection (we've all been there at some point) and start again. It is not as bad as it seems. Good luck
  7. Lara mfl 05

    Lara mfl 05 Star commenter

    [​IMG]Wonderfully honest but useful reply nerlybird.
  8. Thanks for the thoughts and replies. I'd like people to know that I am not stirring and I am only describing (in as much detail as I dare) what has happened to me.

    If headteachers (quite rightly) want to employ the best candidate and choose to employ someone they know or even not advertise the post at all or just advertise it in the chippy or the tobacconist window then fine. But don't waste peoples time by putting it in the TES etc when it's clearly sewn up from the start. They have to advertise it, or maybe I'm wrong, I'd rather they did'nt bother and just employ who they like, hang on this happens too....

    It would be more honest. But there are guidelines, am I wrong again?

    Oh and fair play to those schools who do it right and fairly, I'll work in one of these schools please or serve fish and chips and tobacco!!
  9. 576

    576 Established commenter

    They don't have to advertise it.

    Therefore the only reason they do is to see if there is anyone out there who is better then the maternity cover / ITT they think might be good enough.
  10. Middlemarch

    Middlemarch Star commenter

    I and others have already told you. Schools do not have to advertise these jobs. They do so to see if there is a good candidate out there. If you don't get appointed, they don't share your opinion of yourself.
  11. CWadd

    CWadd Star commenter

    You've told us what happened to you. People have told you that it was not discrimination. You now have two choices - carry on nursing a grievance, or pick yourself up, take advice from the experienced recruiters on this thread, and get yourself the next job you interview for.
  12. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    [​IMG] C Wadd

    Best wishes


    Meet Theo on line on the TES JobSeekers Forum, or in person at one of the TES Careers Advice Service seminars or individual consultations
  13. CWadd

    CWadd Star commenter

    Thank you Theo. I was an internal candidate who did not get the job once - because they wanted someone with more experience of teaching A-Level. And I'd been there for half a term and had to go through the obs/interview to get the temporary post earlier in the Summer. Upset me? Yes. But I just continued looking for jobs, improved my interview technique- and got a perm job in a good school with more responsibility. So, no, internal candidates do not always get the job. And just getting on with it is sometimes the best cure for disappointment and upset.
  14. Lara mfl 05

    Lara mfl 05 Star commenter

    Excellent advice. But also your point
    which shows a good attitude to prospective employers.

    Yes we are all disappointed initially when we are told we didn't get the job and it's alright to feel that way, for a while, but the important fact is to take it as a learning experience, benefit from what we learn and move on so that in the future we are 'the best candidate'!
  15. CWadd

    CWadd Star commenter

    Thank you Lara. I appreciate your comments. I was gutted that I'd not been appointed - but being good for them for a short term contract does not mean you're their best fit. And working in a school as a temp when everyone knew that someone else had been hired for January was hard. Very hard. But I got this job, and left at Christmas. And the Head of the school I'd worked at as a temp wrote me an excellent reference. Sometimes things do seem to go against you - the trick is to turn it back to your best advantage.
  16. Not sure if I find the 'teacher' tone of voice amusing. Yes we know, they do what they want how they want to get the best candidate, very commendable!

    Others have already (maybe indirectly) told you this.

    One of the positives I've had said about me is that I can switch the t'eacher' in me on and off. Don't worry Middlemarch, you're not alone as there are others who can't distinguish between pub/classroom, staff room/classroom. internet forum/classroom.

  17. Middlemarch

    Middlemarch Star commenter

    You've got your own, fixed and entrenched ideas about heads and there's no shifting you. Your comments about me here - given that you know nothing whatever about what I'm like in person - say a lot about your fixed preconceptions.

    The bit about not being "alone as there are others who can't distinguish between pub/classroom...etc" is priceless. I and others have been trying to give you and others advice. You don't agree with it, despite the clear evidence that your 'view' isn't getting you jobs. You resort to attempting to insult me.

    I give up.
  18. Sonic, I really wouldn't want to work with someone as aggressive and unwilling to take advice, as you appear to be. Just the thought of it is wearing. Do you think that this has come across in your interviews?
  19. Skeoch

    Skeoch Lead commenter

    HTs have, usually, plenty of candidates to choose from. On that we're all agreed. Many candidates fit the various criteria. On that we're all agreed. So it's a buyers' market. If Sonic goes into interviews with the sense of entitlement that has been shown throughout this thread, it will have an effect on the HT's judgement on the other questions: will this person fit my team? can I work with them? I think Nerllybird has hit the nail on the head.
  20. Thanks for all the replies. Sometimes it's a fine line between 'aggressive' and 'assertive' and I have been called the exact opposite of both at interviews. Nothing I have described is untrue and I have first hand experience of it.

    Most people react negatively to unfair treatment (pupils included) and rightly so. Some people treat others badly and when others react they get labelled as 'aggressive'. The problem there is not the person with a big chip on his/her shoulder, it is the problem of the person who thinks they can treat others unfairly.

    I think we're all the same, it just depends how much you are pushed and for how long.

    I've got more sense than to fully describe all the dispicable experiences I've had as a teacher. Be assured, it does'nt make happy reading. And great for those who've never been there, just make sure you never work in XXXXXXXXXXXXX school.

    Some people say what goes around comes around. I think that's true.

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