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What to say when Parents say their child doesn't learn phonetically

Discussion in 'Primary' started by Dalian Daisy, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. And English spelling even more so:
    home - come; bone - one - done - gone; fine - imagine - machine..
     
  2. When I was a voluntary reading assistant I kept noting down the words pupils stumbled over and it was very noticeable that the same words caused trouble for all the strugglers:
    e.g. thought, bought, tough, through, touched, should, could, would,
    one, done, does, do, down, now, know,
    laughed, beautiful, suddenly, water,
    To help children to learn to read those words at home - where strugglers tend to get little or no help - I annotated them with simpler spellings.
    They had no trouble reading those and it helped them to learn to read the daft spellings we use for them too.
    U can try it and see for yourself:
    thought[thaut], ... baut, tuf, throo, tuchd
    wun, dun, dus, doo, doun, nou, no
    lafd, butiful, sudnly, wauter..
    'Should, could, would' are trickier to simplify because the short oo sound has no spelling of its own, borrowing from spellings for other sounds (good - food; put - cut).
    I used to start every lesson checking that they could still read them.


     
  3. I think Masha's answer to the weather problems would be to not have snow anymore.[​IMG]
     
  4. It's the US spelling of 'rhyme'. In linguistics, 'rime' technical meaning, and 'rhyme' meaning the endings of words that sound similar, are essentially referring to the same phenonmenon, but the linguistic use is more precisely defined.
    The alternative meaning of 'rime' is frost.
     
  5. Thank you for that link maizie. I thought it was one of the best summaries of the diagnostic problem I have ever seen.
    Why didn't you agree with the conclusion?
     
  6. No. I think many children have rotten things happen to them that we cannot do anything about, other than support them as best we can.
    The hundreds of really stupid English spellings which were brought in on the whim of early scribes (o instead of u next to m, n, u, v or double u [​IMG]) and early printers inserting / changing letters ***** nilly (lern, erly, deth - learn, early, death/e; seke, speke, beleve - seeke, speake, believe) could easily be undone.
    The problem is that most people have no idea how English spelling got into its current mess, other than the vague notion of vowel shifts, supposed to have happened sometime between 1450 - 1750, but for which there is almost no evidence at all. Such evidence as there may have been, was mostly destroyed in the 1666 fire of London and thousands of other house fires which were common with thatched roofs, and people turning old manuscripts into bottle stops after the arrival of printing. They were also obscured by the distortions of English spelling brought about by 16th century printers and the bible wars. (For more detail see the History page on my website or
    http://englishspellingproblems.blogspot.com/2010/04/how-english-spelling-became-so.html )
    I am suggesting that we don't have to keep tolerating the damage done to English spelling, deliberately or accidentally, by stupid or ignorant people. - We don't keep ignoring broken windows or damaged roofs of old cathedrals. We repair them. We should do the same with the damages done to English spelling. Spelling 'month, mother, brother' with an o instead of u is simply stupid. So was dropping the 2nd o from 'doo'.
    What I am trying to do is get people to take an objective look at English spelling, like the kid who pointed out the naked truth of the emperor's new clothes.
    All the reams of fanciful stuff that has been written and read about children learning to read and write drives me mad, because, if u care to look, the main reason for English literacy problems is so blatantly obvious.
     
  7. That's one side of the argument. There's another side: the enormous cost of rationalising English spelling. Money. Health and safety. Difficulty accessing 'old' documents ie the vast body of research, manuals and other material published in English in the last 50 years.


     
  8. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    and the fact we like our idiosyncratic spelling system. It reflects our history and sense of who we are. The fact is the majority of people manage to learn to read and write with our present system so change would not win popular support.
     
  9. I think I worry about 'blanket' terms which could encompass just about anything one would like it to (the way that 'dyslexia' has been moving over the past few years) and I worry about looking at traits which, in the past, have been accepted as part of quite normal human behaviour, as 'disabilities' . At what stage does the entire population turn out to have a 'disability'?
    I have a brother-in-law who, since I have been working in schools, I can see exhibits very strong characteristics of a particular condition which now gets children put on the SEN register (or equivalent) and would definitely be labeled as a 'neurodevelopmental disorder'. We just thought he was quirky...
    It's a difficult area.


     
  10. Just what I wanted to say but you said it so much better!
    I love our spelling system, even if it is quirky - and I love the fact you can make links to Latin, French, German, Greek... The subject is fascinating and good teachers make it so for children. Main problem is that our curriculum is so overcrowded that we expect children to pick things up quickly so they can move on to the next thing - spelling needs constant reinforcement and practice.
     
  11. Excellent point. At one time, I suspect most children were considered quirky and most teachers had developed, or had access to, strategies to help with the quirks. Since the education system now has a curriculum which is to be 'delivered' and which children need to 'access', many of the quirks that get in the way of access now land the child in a distinct category; they 'have SEN'.
    Personally, I think the problem lies with the psychiatrists' diagnostic manual (DSM). When labels like 'dyslexia', 'dyspraxia' and 'autism' were used as shorthand for particular characteristics, they were useful. Most medical practitioners and teachers would have seen the child as a whole person, with unique behavioural and educational strengths and weaknesses that needed development and/or support. The prevalence of the DSM has turned them into conditions that require a diagnosis, and has precipitated a great deal of pointless argument.
     
  12. Elsie worries about the costs of improving English spelling.
    In 10 years from now, when we will be reading mostly online or e-books, in will be easy to switch between old and modernised spelling with just a click. The costs of change will become minimal. The costs which current system incurs, through longer teaching time, remedial education for children and adults, and reduced life chances is enormous.
    I realise that many people still think this. But lots of people also liked beating children and many still like abusing them in other ways. So I should not be surprised that many people love a spelling system that makes learning to read and write much harder than need be. It's just a bit surprising that so many teachers seem do so.
    Most people (around 65%) manage to cope with current spellings, but even half of those don't do so easily; but 40% have such a hard time with it that they never read anything for pleasure after leaving school.
    I know that many of those who can read and write well with the current system are not keen on having to put themselves out a littel for the sake of ensuring that more people can do so. Helping the the less privileged is rarely popular with the better off, but I thought teachers are in the job to help all children to become as well educated as they possibly can. Their attachment to something that clearly impedes learning is a bit more questionable.
     
  13. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    What an insult mashabell's post was to all those children who really are abused.
     
  14. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    Here's a French video about dyslexia:YouTube - Mieux lutter contre la Dyslexie (Vendée)
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    TVvendee | 0 dislikes
    Plus sur http://wizdeo.com/s/tvvendee . Rencontre avec
    l'association Apedys...




    0 dislikes
    Plus sur http://wizdeo.com/s/tvvendee .
    Rencontre avec
    l'association Apedys Vend&eacute;e 85, bas&eacute;e aux Herbiers, qui a pour but d'aider les
    parents d'enfants dyslexiques &agrave; surmonter ses difficult&eacute;s. (Droits r&eacute;serv&eacute;s.
    Pour toute exploitation commerciale, veuillez contacter contact@wizdeo.com)


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    Tr&egrave;s? belle vid&eacute;o qui explique bien la? dyslexie. Par contre les am&eacute;nagements
    surtout au niveau du coll&egrave;ge sont tr&egrave;s difficiles &agrave; mettre en place.

    verodu94 10 months ago

    verodu94 10 months ago
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  15. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    Whoops! Very sorry, everyone. I'm going to try again on internet explorer. Please forgive me if the same thing happens again. If you google "la dyslexie" it's the frist video you come to when you scroll down. It's in French, a famously phonetic language, though the fact that the vast majority of the world's population cannot understand it is tantamount to abuse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvfjpuAmnls&feature=player_detailpage
     
  16. I don't know about French, it's all Greek to me!
    Inky, go back to your [​IMG].

    Hppy Christmas.
     
  17. Or should that be hippy, or hoppy. Oh dear [​IMG]
     
  18. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    Whoops. Sorry, everybody. I'll try again.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvfjpuAmnls&feature=player_detailpage
     
  19. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    Here's a German video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AQRPpbfcU8&feature=player_detailpage
     
  20. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    I could go on.
     

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