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What a surprise

Discussion in 'Education news' started by gainly, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. Lalex123

    Lalex123 Occasional commenter

    When the largest outgoing in a school is wages, just imagine what the powers Gove handed over could do in order to balance the books.

    After 10 years of trying to balance the books, we eventually went into special measures. A whole new leadership team appeared and we received a good. After we got our badge of honour, redundancies ensued as our ‘special measures money’ had ran out and we were back in deficit.

    Yes, managers can be bad. But you can’t improve (or sustain) schools without adequate funding.

    Where do you think the wastage is in education? Where are bad managers spending money where good managers are not?
     
  2. a1976

    a1976 Occasional commenter

  3. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    What is also true is that there are many nations out there doing doing much better for their kids, with a lot less resources.

    There are ideological tensions in education, reflective our wider culture, that pull its purpose in multiple directions, making it a difficult place both to work and learn.
     
  4. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Really ? Countries where the cost of labor is comparable to the UK ? Countries with similar overall cultures to our own ?
     
  5. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    No, that’s why I said a lot less resources.
     
  6. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Then it's not comparable or particularly relevant.
     
  7. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    It's totally relevant because we were talking about value for money and effective ways to manage resources. Given the differences between national school systems are we ever going to be in a position where we can make an entirely level comparison, as you seem to be suggesting? Do we only compare foriegn school systems that make ours look good?
     
  8. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

  9. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Which particular countries were you thinking of ?
     
  10. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    China spend 4.0% of GDP (117th) PISA ranking:1
    Singapore spend 3.3% of GDP (114th) PISA ranking:2
    Japan spend 3.6% of GDP (132nd) PISA ranking: 5/6/15
    Estonia spend 5.5% of GDP (63rd) PISA ranking 8/4/5

    Of the countries outperfoming the UK in PISA scores only Finland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway have a higher spend on Education than the UK and are higher in one or more categories.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_on_education_(%_of_GDP)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment
    This is just the data.
    Some schools in places like India are educating children on an absoloutely shoe-string budget.
     
  11. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    i.e. - the ones that are more similar to us culturally. Context really matters in education.
     
  12. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Lead commenter

    So does reading and attention to detail!
    I said only the Scandanavian countries.
    The others were China, Singapore etc.
    What would the context be?
     
  13. dumbbells66

    dumbbells66 Lead commenter

    China, Singapore and Japan bare no resemblance to the UK education system at all, and should never be compared together.
     
  14. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    Tell that to PISA!
     
  15. dumbbells66

    dumbbells66 Lead commenter

    Thats the problem with trying to compare totally different systems, you arent comparing apples with apples. PISA isnt really of any educational value, just a marketing tool.
     
  16. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    I do think that PISA provides an interesting snapshot, but given the massive impact that cultural norms have on educational outcomes, you just can't treat the data as simplistically as our red friend - or the British govt. - does.

    It should also be noted that it's an open secret that China cheats outrageously at these tests.
     
    dumbbells66 likes this.
  17. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    Anyone who has been in education for a while knows that a test will assess some things and not others. Using that test to compare institutions only gives a limited view of which one is "best" (if such a notion has much meaning).
    There are many factors affecting the performance of an education system.
     
    JL48 likes this.
  18. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    ... I was interrupted.
    Education systems are complex things. The performance of systems is determined by many things.
    I agree that it's not just money. The training and professional development of teachers, the quality of learning resources the appropriateness of assessment tools and curriculum as well as the degree to which the population support the idea of "being educated".
    Our Government says that it places a high value on education. Compared to some other countries it does spend quite a lot on education.
    However, they seem to put more energy into compliance systems and league tables than into professional development and ensuring teachers have the training and tools to work with our kids.
     
    bevdex and JL48 like this.
  19. bessiesmith2

    bessiesmith2 New commenter

    In the Japanese education system, assessments almost always have right / wrong answers. So it is easy to test maths, science and grammar for example but students are almost never required to write a critical essay. My understanding is that the PISA tests are the similar. So if we were to dispense with all the creative aspects of our education system our students would have more time for rote learning and would probably move up the PISA rankings. In my opinion this would not have a beneficial effect on our future society in terms of our ability to innovate and criticize, nor in our personal development. This helps to explain why it is difficult to compare education systems which have very different intentions.
     
    alex_teccy and Sally006 like this.
  20. dumbbells66

    dumbbells66 Lead commenter

    Dont forget the cramming schools.... can you honestly ever see British kids doing that
     
    JL48 likes this.

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