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Discussion in 'Personal' started by red_observer, Aug 7, 2020.
Well I’m persuaded. Where do I sign up?
Yep or just say "pathetic".
Most of the worlds problems are caused by groups of people lacking compassion and empathy.
And any evidence that is posted is ignored.
From the previously posted link here’s a summarised version:
All of this directly from one of the the leader of the people under discussion yet folks want to say it’s all religious and choose to overlook or downplay the political motivations.
However, how much of what was cited as motivators and identified as aims are religious vs political?
Based on the above, it seems it is far more political than theological and the theology only serves as dressing for the political aims and grievances.
As for the cited political grievances, a lot of them are as a result of western actions so I don’t see much of a controversy in linking western actions to the rise of terrorism.
Now how much of the grievances are justified is a different question. To completely disregard their western origin though is just ignorant obstinacy.
That’s natural. Investment decreases with genetic relatedness
Based on the text you yourself provided, it’s demands are religious with “examples” of how the West has contravened the laws of God. My underlining.
“1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.
It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.
(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?
(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.
(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.
(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.
Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?
(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.
(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.
(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.
“If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]
The Nation of honour and respect:
"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]
"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]
The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:
"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]
The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:
"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]
"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]
The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.
If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.
This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?”
I never negated the presence of some religion, what I said was:
how much of what was cited as motivators and identified as aims are religious vs political?
seems it is far more political than theological
therefore all you have shown in your post is that you have decided to highlight the one religious aspect and ignore the fact that the bulk of the grievances and demands are political. Do a tally chart and show how the religious grievances outweigh the political ones if you are able to.
Even in the demands, five/six out of the seven given are political in nature depending on how you want to read it, so again my point stands with regards to the political vs religious nature of the aims and grievances.
have a word with yourself then, because you seem to suggest otherwise elsewhere.
Not a member so I don’t know. . .
The bulk of the grievances are on the whole generalised- I don't think there is a specific one? There's lots about Palestinians, but this could equally apply to the Arab states, and of course lots of anti-antisemitism. It seems written to appeal to Muslims and feed into their general sense of grievances.
If what were doing is comparing it to the IRA then it doesn't really compare. The IRA have a specific goal. Reunification of Ireland. When the Good Friday agreement opened the door to the possibility of this being achieved through politics, the violence was ditched as an official method. What political goals do you think would lead to Al-Quida, ISIS etc giving up violence?
Maybe just join Momentum, the left seem to share lots of sentiments and objectives anyway.
I don’t know what your idea of “specific” is but if we’re going with the standard definition then there are a number of specific grievances and specifically proposed resolutions which those with any sort of comprehension skills could easily identify.
Stated specific grievances:
You attacked us in Palestine
You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there.
Specific Proposed resolution:
stop supporting Israel
Stated specific grievance:
Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them
Proposed specific resolution:
get out of our lands
stated specific grievance:
Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis
Proposed specific resolution:
end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education.
Specific states grievance:
You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.
Specific proposed resolution:
deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation
In this case, Osama literally told you in that long message, but you along with many political leaders and their supporters chose/choose to ignore it and want to paint it all as purely apolitical and all down to theology or some other religious reasons which no one can do anything about and which bares no responsibilities for.
But as always it’s easier to paint enemies as mad and bad rather than looking in the mirror and saying “maybe I’m doing something to cause/contribute to their actions” and “maybe they have some tangible real grievances”
What a hilarious, well reasoned and thoughtful post. Thank you.
The political demands are just a bunch of open ended claims that are unachievable, and designed to push the buttons of muslims and leftists who are stupid enough to buy into the idea that they're circumstances are the result of the Jews and America
Who attacked anyone in Palestine? Isreal have agreed to hand back land to palestians and every time it has been rejected, because the clearly stated aim of Islamist groups is to eradicate the Jews. We don't need to look very far to see that this is an objective of Arab states which have removed their own Jewish populations.
short video- "where are your Jews"
Why is Al-Quaeda demanding the US stop supporting Isreal, and not intrested in the US support of other nations? The answer is that Isreal is stopping the total elimination of Jews from the middle-east.
The US withdrew it's bases from Saudi Arabia in 2003. It didn't stop the rise of ISIS.
? Is this a call for less or more democracy? What's your definition of "support" ?
The US has zero jurisdiction on education policies of foreign powers. In any case, a terrorist organisation has no authority or mandate to tell states what they should or should not do or who they should ally with.
Children would not die if governments were not corrupt. Sanctions against Iraq ended after the gulf war, correct? Yet we still have terrorists cutting the throats of people drinking coffee in London Bridge.
People are responsible for their actions and they have to be made responsible for their actions. That's the basis of civilisation and it's the legal basis on which nations operate.
Assigning collective guilt is wrong and reprehensible.
US policy didn't force people to fly planes into buildings or put children in bread making machines. Stop infantilising people and start assigning blame where it should be, with individuals who commit those acts or compell others to commit those acts.
It's funny coz it's true.
Historic materialism? Check
Selective morality on a massive scale.
I don’t accept anti Islamic posts from anyone. Strange it is allowed.
I think that the Big 3 didn’t think long and hard about the long term impact of what happened at Versailles so yes then did help create the conditions for a Party like the Nazis to exist. Most Germans saw Versailles as an insult you didn’t have to be a Nazi.
The hatred for Moslems and Islam on this thread is deeply worrying... and from teachers?? Daily Mail readers no doubt.
What anti-Islamic posts? Specify what you mean, for once.