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Well, have the French got it right?

Discussion in 'Early Years' started by thumbshrew, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. How about asking me if I discussed it with SMT, Msz? That's how I won a concession that TAs would man a rota system to bring the outside stuff in.

    Why are you still posting on here? I reckon you have said everything you've got to say now.

    I won't acknowledge that 'my practice' was making matters worse, because I know it wasn't, unless you mean I should have ignored what needed doing and left my standards and good will in the car park. The examples of paint pots and water bottles that you have picked on were both only parts of the workload. Different nurseries will have different job lists.

    I am not writing about myself. I am writing about a situation that prevails, in various guises, in any school where the TAs are not given time to contribute what is needed under present 'good practice'.
     
  2. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    Surely everyone has the right to make as many posts as they choose on a thread. Clearly Msz has not said everything she has got to say or she wouldn't still be posting.



    When you say 'I am not writing about myself', that is untrue; you have been posting about yourself throughout the thread.
     
  3. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I haven't even got started yet thumbie [​IMG]
     
  4. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Are you still working at the school thumbie?
     
  5. Yes, nutella, they do have that right, of course. I was asking Msz a question, not telling her she has to go away.[​IMG]

    You have made that mistake - of thinking I was writing about myself - from the beginning of the thread. I was using my case as an example to illustrate a point about working practice. There's a difference, but you don't appear to have the subtlety to recognise it.
     
  6. No. As I said I am not working in a school at the moment.
     
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    Since you were using your case then I supposed you were talking about yourself and not anyone else. For whatever purpose you used your case it was still presumably YOUR case and no one else's. If we are talking about subtlety I'd suggest that you are the one who lacks it!



    Wasn't it you then who had the sports bottles in their nursery? Wasn't it you who washed paint pots and sharpened pencils when you volunteered?
     
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    Quotes there have come out back to front.
     
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    You did rather confuse the issue by saying that you were working as a volunteer.
     
  10. Oh dear. Yes I was writing about myself, but as an example. I could have written about someone else in a similar situation and it would have still been an example. The fact that it was myself is not relevant to the discussion, just that the situation exemplified exists. Geddit?

    I am not working in a school in a paid capacity at the moment.

    I do work as a volunteer in a school sometimes.

    I used to work as a teacher in the school with the stupid bottles.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    Oh dear indeed! First you say you weren't talking about yourself and now you admit that you were talking about yourself although the fact that you were talking about yourself is irrelevant. You muddied the water from the very beginning, thumbie by giving all that personal detail. [​IMG]



    Out of interest, are you thinking of returning to work in a school in a paid capacity?
     
  12. That's what I meant about a subtle difference, nutella. I'm not convinced you've got it, yet.

    I gave personal detail to illustrate. I wish now I had made up a fictional person for the vultures to pick over.
     
  13. May2

    May2 Established commenter

    Back to what Thumbie was saying,

    I agree that Early Years has become a job with never ending hours. In our Nursery we have a 'Nursery Nurse' who is actually just TA trained but has that title and so higher pay and is paid 3/4 hour each day extra to the children's hours. She starts about 20 minutes before they come in and stays later for other jobs. However we work with Reception as a unit and the TAs in there only work the children's hours. We are not allowed to leave stuff out under our shelter at night due to a 'fire risk' . So we have a large area and loads of stuff needs setting up outside every morning as well as the inside. Due to us going into RI there is no let up with observations, Learning Journeys etc which all staff are supposed to be undertaking but with teachers overseeing.

    We have come to a stage where staff particularly the 4 TAs who work different mornings and afternoons in Reception feel it is impossible to keep up with what is now expected in EY and don't feel it is benefitting the children. We don't get time to play and interact as during all continuous provision all children are supposed to be making progress and staff are struggling to fit in all the observations that LA advisors have now said we must do en route out of RI. It has had the affect of losing a teacher and an excellent TA and another TA requesting a move to a different class next year.
     
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    I haven't seen any vultures picking over anything but perhaps they have got their eyes on the water from the water bottles.

    Anyway I am off to bed.
     
  15. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    but I am not allowed to write about how it works in my school to provide an example from a different perspective [​IMG]
    ditto
     
  16. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    It sounds as if May2's school is somewhere between the two earlier examples and dare I suggest that often the problem lies with LA advisers making unrealistic demands (and sometimes with SMT lacking knowledge of EYFS ) rather than with the actual statutory requirements.
     
  17. If that is happening in our LA, Msz, it shouldn't be. They should be paid full year and work 32 1/2 hours a week with full school holidays (unless they were specifically employed as part timers, though they should still be paid full year). If they are being paid term time only they should be talking to their union!
    I have neve heard of TAs in our LA being hourly paid with time sheets but then, some HTs like to be a law unto themselves instead of abiding by locally negotiated terms & conditions.

    However, none of this detracts from the fact that thumbie somehow seems to think that it is disgraceful that TAs should get 'salaries' for their menial jobs.
     
  18. Describe your situation again, Msz, if you like - for people new to the thread. Who is stopping you?

    My argument is that as an example your situation is rather rare. Would you agree? I mentioned before that I doubt it happens anywhere in my local authority, judging by job adverts for TAs.

    The other factor is that your TAs, as you said yourself, are more highly qualified than they need to be ie they are qualified beyond level 3. As level 2/3 is the required qualification for the job your TAs cannot be regarded as typical. In fact, even if all the TAs in the land had PhDs it would just be good (debatable) luck, not policy. Can you grasp that point, I wonder?

    Any argument about TA roles has to be based on the actual job descriptions, conditions of service and person specs used. If yours go beyond it, and if their contracts are different from the norm, that's excellent news for you. But not for anyone else. As an example it is the exception rather than the rule.
     
  19. You've got the wrong end of the stick, Maizie. I haven't said there is anything disgraceful about anything. 'Disgraceful' isn't a word I use in argument - it's a bit too 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' for me.

    My query is about TAs working conditions and role, how the system is working, or not working, and whether it should change to be more like the French system or in some other way, specifically in nursery. I have not attacked TAs, or TAs having salaries. And I don't subscribe to any TAs versus teachers viewpoint. We're all in it together.

    Where I live TAs usually have an annual salary which I think is paid monthly, but they are usually paid term time only. I agree that the unions should try to do something about it. The salary is pitiful.

    What I am saying, in a nutshell, is that roles have changed so much in school that TAs and teachers are finding it increasingly difficult to fit everything that needs doing into the working day. The result is that teachers, with their open ended contract, are doing more and more outside school hours. TAs, as their contracts are not open ended, are not obliged to work outside school hours. And why should they? I have come across some who do stay behind for a while, but it is through generosity and should not be taken for granted.

    I wonder if some sort of shift system might work better?
     
  20. Maizie, the level 3 teaching assistant posts in my local authority are all advertised as term time only, with an actual salary of £14,363 - £18,882.

    You might be interested in this article too (and the comments):

    https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6210927
     

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