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Veil

Discussion in 'Education news' started by Iftilsi, Feb 1, 2016.

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  1. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter

    "It is estimated only one in 500 pupils wear the veil in the UK"

    Surely there can't be that many veiled pupils. 250 out of every 500 are boys. Is there really one veiled girl out of the remaining 250 students?

    Question: would you want your children's head teacher to be wasting time on this silliness - which boils down ideological conflict versus political correctness - instead of improving maths teaching...? Schools are now grappling with lots of stuff and nonsense which should actually be the job of the Home Office.

    Schools will be marked down by Ofsted for the first time if inspectors judge that wearing the veil – by students or teachers – is a "barrier to learning".

    Sir Michael Wilshaw, the chief inspector, has on Tuesday written to all inspectors instructing them to mark down institutions where they believe the veil hinders "positive social interaction".
    He said that people need to listen to David Cameron’s concerns that “our liberal values, our liberal West values, are protected”. The new rules will affect around 16,000 children and just under 1,000 teachers who currently wear the veil to school.

    It comes after the Prime Minister announced that Muslim women can be banned from wearing veils in schools, courts and other British institutions. This is the coward's way out - putting inspectors, head teachers and schools into the ideological front line. Cameron should lead from the front instead of shoving educators into the front line and washing his hands .

    An school inspection expert said there was no research to support Ofsted's veil penalty for schools. Dr Andrew Clapham, senior lecturer at Nottingham Trent University, said: “Ofsted’s threat to penalise institutions where the Muslim veil is worn has no basis in research. There is no credible evidence base to suggest that “wearing a piece of clothing on one's head has an impact on intellectual or academic ability”.

    “Moreover, the veil is no more or less physically inhibiting than a whole range of other headwear. Consequently, it appears bemusing that this piece of clothing should be signalled specifically as having a hindrance on learning. To claim that the veil, as Sir Michael Wilshaw the Chief Inspector suggests, can impact negatively on “positive social interactions” is also lacking a basis in research.

    “Penalising an institution because of a piece of clothing raises a whole range of questions which appear beyond the remit of the school inspectorate. If Ofsted is to pursue this initiative, then empirical evidence should be analysed prior to making such a policy decision.”

    A Department for Education spokesman said "we fully support" the statement from Sir Michael that head teachers who "restrict the wearing of the veil to support effective teaching and learning will receive Ofsted's backing".

    Mr Cameron said that he will give his backing to public authorities that put in place “proper and sensible” rules to ban women from wearing face veils in comments which will reignite debates.
    Schools have had uniform rules challenged time and again and courts typically show then to be unenforceable. Face coverings are not banned by law. Schools will find it difficult to enforce any ban as part of the uniform. Ofsted will therefore criticise schools for allowing something that is completely legal.

    If the government are prepared to stick their neck out and ban then then they should do it. Calling on others to do something is pathetic whilst they're unwilling to do something themselves. Is there anyone in government with any balls to say what they mean?

    The Government is preparing to announce a series of measures designed to stop British Muslims becoming radicalised and traveling to the Middle East to join terrorist groups such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).

    As part of the plans, ministers will pledge to outlaw gender segregation during meetings in public buildings amid concerns that some Muslim organisations are forcing women to sit separately.
    Ofsted's move was faced with opposition by Muslim leaders. Dr Sheik Howjat Ramzy, director of Iqra Institute in Oxford and former head of an Islamic school, said Ofsted’s move was “unjust” and it was “picking on Muslims in particular”.

    He told the Daily Telegraph: “I believe he’s totally wrong and this is totally unjust. Ofsted is picking on faith schools, specially Muslim schools. There is nothing wrong with wearing the head veil.”
    He estimated only one in 500 pupils wear the veil in the UK. He added: “Not many pupils wear the veil. The veil doesn’t make pupils intelligent or not. It gives them their identity and some security. Pupils have the right to wear the veil if they go to Islamic schools. That is no problem.” "It is also clearly right that if the wearing of the veil is interfering with education in schools that should trigger action from Ofsted."

    Teachers criticised Ofsted's move too.

    Leora Cruddas, Director of Policy at the Association of School and College Leaders, said: "We do not think that it is the role of Ofsted inspectors to judge schools on uniform policies and dress codes. Inspectors should focus on what schools achieve rather than what people wear. Schools make decisions on uniform policies and dress codes with the needs of their staff and pupils in mind and take into consideration relevant educational, welfare and equalities issues."

    You cannot have a multi-ethnic society and then impose restrictions on people's ethnicity. If their religious requirements are to wear a niqab/veil/yashmak/burka they must be free to choose to do so. It's not for the government or school teachers to dictate what should be worn in school or anywhere else. If teachers need to identify pupils whose faces are covered there is always the simple expedient of wearing an ID tag, if you go into any government department they give you one to wear so that you can be identified, it's no big deal. The government is a servant of the people, they are not dictators. Have you never heard of religious freedom? The government is there to see that in a democracy people of different faiths or none can abide by the tenets of their faith without interference. The women I see going about with a bit of black cloth ties round their heads never seem very subjugated. They are in groups with other, unveiled, women, and chatter away to each other in local accents as they shop.

    But wearing religious garb must be left to the discretion of the wearer. If it offends the teacher on the grounds that covering the face is incompatible with his/her ability to teach a class then some compromise must be reached. That is what this whole question revolves around. Who is prepared to give ground? It could be argued that the pupil is welcome in the class but the face must be recognisable. If the pupil insists that their religion demands a complete cover-up then it is a simple matter that on religious grounds they cannot be part of the class. If the teacher is comfortable with teaching a covered-up pupil then a suitable compromise has been reached.

    Banning the wearing of the burka is every bit as oppressive as enforcing its use. If women choose to adopt this apparel it's their decision. OFSTED hinders learning! How are OFSTED going to determine if it is the veil that is impeding teaching and learning or if it is down to other factors?? Maybe by asking one teacher...that in itself is enough!! Maybe "eeney meany miney mo"... Teachers who wear a veil remove it when they are in their classroom with the children.

    Niqab is part of freedom of expression and religion. It might be something you don’t like or respect, but it is the choice of women to make, if they want to cover their faces then they should and in many societies are free to do so.

    Wearing the Niqab has never been a security threat, and if one was to say in case it becomes a security threat, let’s BAN women from expressing their beliefs and determining for themselves what they want, then I say INCREASE and IMPROVE the security of institutions.
    There might be some Muslims who deny the niqab as having any legitimate basis in Islam, but when faced with evidence from Islamic traditions, I wonder, what evidence to they bring to support their preposterous arguments.

    And, Let’s for the sake of the argument say this has nothing to do with Islam, it still has everything to do with the right of women to determine for themselves how they want to dress.

    According to some western feminists, ban on Burqa is violation of fundamental human right to choice for dress. To them the law does not aim at defending Muslim women rights but restricting the same. The Burqa ban is, in fact, liberticidal, they argue. And it will not defend women dignity but increase racist aggression against Muslim women wearing veils.

    The niqab, hijab, and Burqa are all Islamic, as they have been customary in parts of the Muslim world and are bound up in Muslim scripture and tradition for hundreds of years. Such clothes may very well have been inherited by Islam from pre-Islamic cultures, too. But that doesn’t change the fact that the clothes are closely identified with Islam. As for any rules REQUIRING or BANNING clothes are unnecessary.

    Not covering whole face or not is up to interpretation of various schools of thought and they shall be accountable on their intentions behind interpretation but I have numerous examples around me where women are doing complete veil and they are very much professional and active in every walk of life and living a very "respectable" and healthy life along with every contemporary suitable fashion and ornaments they may feel comfortable with.
    IA
    [This comment/section has been removed for breaching our Community Guidelines/Terms and conditions]
     
  2. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    I've taught muslim girls who don't have this veil nonsense inflicted upon them. I've also taught muslim girls who do wear head covering, and I don't think a single one of them would do so unless their parents (father/brothers?) forced them to.

    You may be one of the very small minority that like to cover up, but please have the honesty, and decency, to admit that the vast majority of girls and women want nothing to do with veils and burqas.
     
    Annarosa1 likes this.
  3. slstrong123

    slstrong123 New commenter

    If you choose to wear a baseball cap to school and it's not part of school uniform you will be sent home. Most schools already make it clear what is acceptable school uniform before you choose to send your daughter there. I have met and indeed taught some highly intelligent and educated Muslim women
    Some choose to cover their hair and others don't. Not one of them wore a veil.
     
    Annarosa1 likes this.
  4. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter

    Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

    I am a Jihadi in the field of education for the last 45 years. I set up the first Muslim school in London in 1981. Now there are 188 Muslim schools and only 18 are state funded. I would like to see each and every Muslim child in a state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers. I hope one day my dream would come true. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. Muslim children need Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. The demand for state funded Muslim schools is in ac accordance with the law of the land. Muslim community is not asking for any favour. The PM is wrong that Muslim schools teach “intolerance”. Actually all state and church schools have been teaching hatred, intolerance and discrimination for a long time. The native teachers are chicken racist and British schooling is the home of institutional racism.
    The demand for state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers is nothing to do with segregation on integration. It is purely an educational issue. Muslim children must develop their cultural, linguistic and spiritual identities before they are exposed to wider society, otherwise, they would be lost in western Jungle.

    The Muslim community has been passing through a phase of fourth Crusades. The battleground is the field of education, where the young generation will be educated properly with the Holly Quran in one hand and Sciences in other hand to serve the British society and the world at large. A true Muslim is a citizen of the world, which has become a small global village. We are going to prepare our youth to achieve that objective in the long run. A true Muslim believes in Prophet Moses and the Prophet Jesus and without them one cannot be a Muslim. My suggestion is that in all state, independent and Christian based school special attention should be given to the teaching of Comparative Religion and Islam should be taught by qualified Muslim Teachers to make the children aware of the closeness of Islam to Christianity and Judaism which will help them to think about Islam, as “A Pragmatic and Modern Way of Life,” during their life time.

    Islamic schools too often inspire mistrust in those who fear that they foment segregation and isolation. Occasionally, those fears have proved well-founded. The Trojan horse scandal was an attempt by radicals in 2013 to impose an Islamist agenda on 21 state schools in Birmingham. Elsewhere, a teaching assistant at a primary school was filmed saying that music should be banned, clapping was satanic and that homosexuals should be stoned to death. It is therefore encouraging that, as we report today, some Islamic schools are intertwining the teaching of British values alongside religious faith. Contrary to what some might believe, the two are not incompatible. Our future depends on them not becoming so.

    Fourth Crusade has been started in Europe because of immigration. Whole of Europe is affected and let us see where the wind blows. Now Crusade would be fought in the streets of all the capital cities of western Europe. Muslim community needs Masajid, state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers, Muslim cemeteries, halal meat and sharia laws. Muslim community has already been engaged in Jihad in all these field. I hope my dream would come true in the near future without shedding a single drop of blood in the streets.

    The native Brits must learn to respect and tolerate those who are different. You have failed to respect and tolerate Black community, who speaks your language, share your culture and faith. English, Irish, Welsh and Scott hate each other, sharing the same culture, faith and language. It is difficult for you to accept, respect and tolerate Muslims with different culture, languages and FAITH. You have no choice but to accept them for your own survival. The number of Muslims is on the increase because of immigration, high birth rate and conversion. By the end of this century, nearly 50% of British population would be Muslim.

    Muslim community in all western countries need Masajid, state funded Muslim schools , Halal meat and Muslim cemeteries. West must learn to respect and tolerate those who are different. Don't these hypocrites idiots know what their ancestors did to Native American Indians they slaughtered 150 millions of Native American Indians! and also do they know that Great Britain invaded 80% countries around the world? They should call them terrorist first and as well call their ancestors terrorist! British did the same to Native American Indians and sadly they still treat Native American Indians badly! So Americans Indians know how you Muslims feel! They stolen Indian land and killed 150 millions of Indians the British did! They were forced to go to the white man's school and learn the language, culture and faith of the white man. Inspite of that, they are still the under dogs of the American society.
    British schooling and the British society is the home of institutional racism. The result is that Muslim children are unable to develop self-confidence and self-esteem, therefore, majority of them leaves schools with low grades. Racism is deeply rooted in British society. British schools are not doing enough to tackle racism and promote race relations. Many teachers are unaware of racist attitudes amongst pupils. Schools have a responsibility not only to deal with racist incidents but also to prepare pupils for life in a multicultural and multiracial society. At least one racist incident is reported daily in Bolton schools, according to stats obtained from Bolton Council by Manchurian Matters. Bolton Council of Mosques Manager, Ibrahim Kala, said the data is only the “tip of the iceberg” and that Islamophobia makes up a large portion of the reported incidents. Stats obtained through the Freedom of Information request show 2,397 cases of racism in Bolton schools in the years from 2004 to 2013, meaning on average there are 1.26 racist incidents occur daily – and these are only the ones being reported.

    Indiscipline, incivility, binge drinking, drug addiction, gun and knife crimes, teenage pregnancies and abortion are part and parcel of British schooling. These are the reasons why majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Only less than 5% attend Muslim schools and more than 95% keep on attending state and church schools to be mis-educated and de-educated by non-Muslim monolingual teachers.

    There are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim Academies. This mean the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence in who they are and an understanding of Islam’s teaching of tolerance and respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society. Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better discipline and teaching Islamic values. Children like discipline, structure and boundaries. Bilingual Muslim children need Bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods, who understand their needs and demands.
    IA
    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
     
  5. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter

    Ofsted is not only against segregation but also against Muslim schools. Boys and girls should be educated separately with their own teachers. Muslim parents would like to send their daughters in single sex state funded Muslim schools with female teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim girl or a teacher in a Muslim school. Muslim community would like to protect their children from the evils of the western society. You better educate your children and let Muslim community educate their children according the needs and demands of the parents.

    British values, which are said to include respect for legally protected characteristics such as homosexuality, religion, gender change, disability, race and marital status. what a warping of British values, the British values I was taught are respect for the institution of marriage, freedom of religious pursuit, freedom of speech, respect for the monarch. respect for others.

    Every week there is a story about teachers getting involved with a pupil or more... What the heck is wrong with people these days???? Why do some teachers, male and female, overstep their boundaries? This isn't a new phenomenon it's been rife since I was at school. Shame on the teachers who get inappropriately involved with pupils it's unprofessional and inexcusable and makes life harder for those who actually just want to be good attentive teachers.This kind of relationship is far more common that the public at large might suspect. I taught for 30 years and during that time was aware of at least three unprofessionally close relationships between young, and not so young, female teachers and older students. In at least one of them, the teacher was in a senior position. I can only conclude that there is something missing in the emotional development of these women who find it difficult to make relationships with men of their own age and find the adoration and control they have over young students something very appealing. Whether it causes any harm is another issue.

    What is it with teachers and pupils these days? When I was a teaching student years ago we were reminded often that were "in loco parentis" - acting in the place of parents. That made the idea of any attractions between staff and students just creepy when we were young teachers. We were also taught that professionals keep a distance between themselves and clients/students. . Are teachers not taught that anymore? Probably not, now they are "friends" not stand-in parents, or professionals. We can thank the slippery slide of liberalism for that.

    This is one of the many reason why Muslim parents would like to send their children to state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models. Single sex schools are required for Muslim children. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

    Muslim children not only need halal meat or Eid Holidays but they need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their development period also. There are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim Academies. This means the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence in who they are and an understanding of Islamic teaching of tolerance and respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society.
    IA
    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
     
  6. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    @Iftilsi, can I ask if the schools with which you are associated experience a phenomenon of 'Friday Muslims' analogous to 'Sunday Catholics' who attend church purely to get their child into a good school?
     
  7. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter

    A Muslim is supposed to pray five times a day and Friday prayers must be performed in a Mosque. It is a crime against humanity to send Muslim children to no-Muslim schools with non-Muslim teachers. Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. Majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools but there are only 188 Muslim schools and only 18 are state funded. I would like to see each and every Muslim child in a state funded Muslim school with Muslim teachers.

    Indiscipline, incivility, binge drinking, drug addiction, gun and knife crimes, teenage pregnancies and abortion are part and parcel of British schooling. These are the reasons why majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Only less than 5% attend Muslim schools and more than 95% keep on attending state and church schools to be mis-educated and de-educated by non-Muslim monolingual teachers.

    There are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim Academies. This mean the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence in who they are and an understanding of Islam’s teaching of tolerance and respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society. Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better discipline and teaching Islamic values. Children like discipline, structure and boundaries. Bilingual Muslim children need Bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods, who understand their needs and demands.
    IA
    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
     
  8. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

     
  9. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    This is to my question: Do you suspect that some fathers turn up for Jummah salaat just so they can get a letter of recommendation from the Imam to the school head? Muslims on Friday and ignoring their obligations the rest of the week?
     
  10. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter

    One in 500 girls wear the veil in UK. How many women wear the face veil in the UK? less than 1% yet this is a full blown issue for ministers to get mileage from?? This must be a trump card for the Prime Minister to use when he has nothing else left. We don't legislate to tell women what to wear, so why are we seeking to alienate less than 1% of the UK's veil wearing Muslim women-who in the male psyche are just not conforming to the male centric ego. If people feel uncomfortable with women exercising their religious rights then this is a civil rights issue. Women should have a right to wear what they wish without the Prime Minister getting involved especially when it involves a tiny minority of women in this country.. There have been white female converts to Islam on the news who've decided to wear the full face veil.
    I thought OFSTED was supposed asses a school's education performance, not get involved in politics and the prejudices of "white English Anglo-Saxons". Whether we like it or not parents do have a right to have their children educated within their cultural norms whether they are Muslim, Hindu or Christian.
    IA
    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
     
  11. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

     
  12. Maths_Shed

    Maths_Shed Occasional commenter

    There should be no place, anywhere, for incitement to religious hatred.
     
  13. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter

    Muslim schools are not like church schools. Less than 10% of children attend Muslim schools because there are only 188 Muslim schools and only 18 are state funded. I would like to see each and every Muslim child in a state funded Muslim school. I hope one day my dream would come true.
     
  14. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter


    Truth is always bitter.
     
  15. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    I don't know about that. I suspect they share many good things in common, but parents are parents and demand for places can be high.
     
  16. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    There has been none in this thread.
     
  17. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter

    You better educate your children and let Muslim community educate their children according to their needs and demands. It is nothing to do with segregation or integration. It is purely an educational issue.
     
  18. Iftilsi

    Iftilsi New commenter

    Demand is high but there are on 188 Muslim schools for a round about a million Muslim children. DFE, non-Muslim teachers, Teaching Organisations and LAs do not want to see Muslim schools.

    38 of the 44 Muslim schools featured had over 89 percent (national average) of their students reaching Level 4 and above in Reading; meaning that 86 percent of Muslim schools surpassed the national average of Level 4 and above in Reading. 17 Muslim schools had a 100 percent pass rate in Level 4 and above in Reading.

    • 33 of the 44 Muslim schools featured had over 49 percent (national average) of their students reaching Level 5 and above in Reading; meaning that 75 percent of Muslim schools surpassed the national average of Level 5 and above in Reading. 2 Muslim schools had a 100 percent pass rate in Level 5 and above in Reading.

    Grammar, Punctuation and Spelling

    • 40 of the 44 Muslim schools featured had over 80 percent (national average) of their students reaching Level 4 and above in Grammar, Punctuation and Spelling; meaning that 91 percent of Muslim schools surpassed the national average of Level 4 and above in Grammar, Punctuation and Spelling. 18 Muslim schools had a 100 percent pass rate in Level 4 and above in Grammar, Punctuation and Spelling.

    • 29 of the 44 Muslim schools featured had over 56 percent (national average) of their students reaching Level 5 and above in Grammar, Punctuation and Spelling; meaning that 67 percent of Muslim schools surpassed the national average of Level 5 and above in Grammar, Punctuation and Spelling. 3 Muslim schools had a 100 percent pass rate in Level 5 and above in Grammar, Punctuation and Spelling.

    Math
    • 34 of the 44 Muslim schools featured had over 87 percent (national average) of their students reaching Level 4 and above in Math; meaning that 77 percent of Muslim schools surpassed the national average of Level 4 and above in Math. 11 Muslim schools had a 100 percent pass rate in Level 4 and above in Math.

    • 27 of the 44 Muslim schools featured had over 42 percent (national average) of their students reaching Level 5 and above in Math; meaning that 61 percent of Muslim schools surpassed the national average of Level 5 and above in Math. 1 Muslim school had a 100 percent pass rate in Level 5 and above in Math.

    Muslim Primary Schools 2015: Key Stage 2 or equivalent results table:

    http://muslimnews.co.uk/newspaper/home-news/muslim-primary-schools-2015-key-stage-2-or-equivalent-results/
     
  19. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    Just introduce the French law banning the veil. Problem solved.
     
    wanet and monicabilongame like this.
  20. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Other than yours, an objective problem has yet to be demonstrated.
     

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