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Unpaid leave request for a pilgrimage turned down by head.

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by Redrosie, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. InkyP

    InkyP Star commenter

    Besides which Muslims don't have to take time off during Ramadan, although they might request time off to do the Haaj (sp?) once in a lifetime. As said before, pilgrimages are not a compulsory part of Christianity and could be taken in the school holidays.
     
  2. Actually pilgrimages may well be on certain days to tie in with saint's feast days and these are fixed.
     
  3. Diddysan

    Diddysan New commenter


    So your point is that the middle east is more religiously enlightened?
     
  4. Karvol

    Karvol Occasional commenter

    NO, my point is that you cannot see the wood for the trees.
     
  5. Diddysan

    Diddysan New commenter


    I'm not sure what your point is other than to be insulting. My point was that all recognized religious beliefs should be accommodated, and had nothing to do with whatever you were trying to say about immigration. If the OP wants to take unpaid leave to celebrate a recognized religious event, than I think she should be able to do so. Just as the aforementioned muslim would be given time to take the Hajj, or an observant Jew would spend Yom Kippur in prayer and fasting. Without knowing what particular event the OP wishes to attend, we cannot know if it could be taken outside of term time or not. In any case, attending a pilgrimage with ones own congregation is not the equivalent of taking a holiday with friends. For the OP it is a meaningful experience with her religious community, and she has no control over its timing, plus she is giving 11 months notice.
     
  6. Karvol

    Karvol Occasional commenter

    All? Or do you mean those recognised by an established authority?
    Every major religious event is already catered for. Christianity is the state religion in the UK, therefore it has assigned holidays - Christmas and Easter. In a Muslim country, the Islamic equivalents are assigned holidays. It is the same with every country if there is a recognized state religion.
    Whether the individual goes with a congregation is neither here nor there, nor is the religious reason really that important. Term time is for teaching. If the individual needs a job that is more flexible then, unfortunately, teaching was a bad choice.
     
  7. Diddysan

    Diddysan New commenter

    Then I suppose women had better choose to have their babies during summer hols, and make sure no one in your family has the temerity to have a major event like a wedding or a funeral (which are after all religious observances) during term time.
    The bottom line is that teachers take personal leave for a host of reasons that are, to put it bluntly, personal. I have no right to question someones religious devotion, or their relationship with a sick relative, or their choice to reproduce. Depending on the OP's previous record of absenteeism, I believe the head could and should deal with issues like this on a case by case basis. We all have had reasons that have caused us to miss work. Last year my son was born 4 weeks premature and yes I missed some days. We all have to balance our family, work and (for those who have one) our spiritual life.
    I have no idea if the OP's request is valid or not, I do not know all the circumstances. What bothers me is the automatic rejection of any religious motive as irrelevant. Family is not irrelevant, nor is personal sickness and neither is ones faith.
     
  8. Karvol

    Karvol Occasional commenter

    No, there is statutory entitlement to maternity leave.
    Atheists get married and die all the time. Neither are religious events. One can evoke religious or any other superstitious meaning into them, but they are not in themselves religious occasions.
    The head did deal with it. She said no. The problem is that you need to deal with the fact that permission ( which is the head's to give or refuse ) was refused.
    You still don't seem to understand that faith, within Europe, is a personal thing. The UK has statutory holidays during Christmas and Easter as would befit a Christian country. However to demand holiday time - paid or unpaid - for any religious event that one deems important is ludicrous. In this situation it is the Heads remit to deem if it is important to the wellbeing of the school or not. She deemed that it was more important that the member of staff fulfilled the terms of their contract and turned up to work.
    This is not deep south Louisiana. The Enlightenment passed by in Europe a couple of centuries ago. If you wish to use faith or any other superstition as a bargaining chip then I strongly suggest that you work in those countries that use it as such.
    Europe does not.


     
  9. Diddysan

    Diddysan New commenter

    Wow Karvol.... taking this a little personally are we?.... I may be in deep south louisiana, but I was born and bred in Scotland. Again, you pepper your arguements with stereotype cliches that have no bearing on my original point.
    To reiterate: If the employee has the right to ask for unpaid leave, I believe school administration has NO BUSINESS delving into the personal reasons for that leave. My boss has no place judgeing my private life, beliefs, family relationships or any other matter. If the head refused because the school could not function without the OP then fair enough. What I object to is the idea that the request may have been refused BECAUSE the reason was religious.
    That would be discriminatory.....even in "Enlightened" Europe.
     
  10. Karvol

    Karvol Occasional commenter

    Did you read this bit?
    "The head has said no to the request as she has turned others down
    in the past who have requested extra time off either side of a school holiday
    but this seems rather harsh as it is for a religious reason"
    The head did not turn it down due to religious reasons. She turned it down because it took place either side of a school holiday. It was the OP who said that religious reasons should have taken precedence.
    Now to quote you:
    I guess you have your answer now.

     
  11. Diddysan

    Diddysan New commenter

    Indeed I do..... my issue was never with the head in the OP. My issue is that some of the subsequent posts seemed to be taking an increasingly intolerant, anti-religion viewpoint.
    And in a larger sense, I feel that in some cases our own personal life does get to take priority over our jobs. For some that might mean family leave, berevement leave, getting signed off work for stress and yes, for some it may take a spiritual form. I object to management getting to judge what should be a personal choice.
    As a side note, here in "UNENLIGHTENED LOUISIANA" I can request unpaid personal leave without stating a reason and the only way it can be refused is if cover cannot be found. My contract automatically gives me that. Perhaps one day the labour (or should that be labor) laws in ENLIGHTENED Europe may catch up with the third world backwater I presently call home. (tho' not for long...... I'm off to china!!!!!!!!)
    BTW..... I enjoy spirited debate..... try to avoid the childish namecalling and stereotyping, it only takes away from what is actually a very rational and well thought out line of reasoning.
     

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