1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi Guest, welcome to the TES Community!

    Connect with like-minded education professionals and have your say on the issues that matter to you.

    Don't forget to look at the how to guide.

    Dismiss Notice

Ukip want to ban the burqa and sharia law!

Discussion in 'Personal' started by delmamerchant, Apr 23, 2017.

  1. sadscientist

    sadscientist Senior commenter

    [QUOTE="delmamerchant, post: 12065776
    ..other students/persons taking exams, ....?[/QUOTE]


    There are very strict JCQ regs about identifying candidates in public exams, and I have never encountered or heard of any objections from candidates. The Exams Officer and invigilators would be in very deep trouble.
  2. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter


    Love the Avatar BTW.

    Very Br(eaking) Ba(d)
    Nanook_rubs_it and sadscientist like this.
  3. delmamerchant

    delmamerchant Established commenter

    How can you only show your face to a female member of staff in a secular school in England?
  4. delmamerchant

    delmamerchant Established commenter


    There are very strict JCQ regs about identifying candidates in public exams, and I have never encountered or heard of any objections from candidates. The Exams Officer and invigilators would be in very deep trouble.[/QUOTE]

    There are indeed but it does not stop people trying it on.
  5. InkyP

    InkyP Star commenter

    Presumably you have some female staff. You said they wouldn't uncover their faces for identification purposes. I was making a suggestion.
  6. delmamerchant

    delmamerchant Established commenter

    I understand. But it really is not a road we should go down in the school environment otherwise you end up in a situation where you employ only female staff. It is simple, you do not need to cover your face in England in a secular school.

    Thank you for participating in the discussion though:D
  7. Rozario123

    Rozario123 New commenter

    BAN ALL RELIGIOUS COVERINGS!! As someone from a Muslim background and having given up on religion, I feel under so much pressure to cover up. Girls I went to school/ university with who were normal Westernised students have become very religious - one even has her 9 year old daughter covered up. My sister recently went to Tower Hamlets to visit (distant) family, walking round the streets people would look at her with her hair on display - or it could have been that she was with her white husband!!

    Yes people can do what they want, but there is so much pressure to conform that it can be difficult to say no. I have met so many muslim teenagers who don't want to follow traditions - who want to be like other white British teenagers but can't. When I gave up following traditions, someone called me a 'coconut' - brown on the outside, white on the inside.

    Covering up is nothing to do with religion but is connected with culture.
  8. Calpurnia99

    Calpurnia99 Star commenter

    In a small school, like the one I worked at, you "knew" who you were dealing with. If facial recognition were required, the veil was removed in the presence of moi. Like I didn't recognise the voice or the walk.
    Now in my present school, we have today hit meltdown re number of rooms/laptops required for "specials". Only one of these wears niqab and her needs have nothing to do with it; but her mother, being devout but not otherwise idiot , is going to accompany me whilst I match girl with.... what? school photo? Permission declined...could be anyone. How the hell do I know the young woman trustfully lowering her veil to me is XXX on the database?

    Before anyone has a go, I have had exactly the same problemo with (always) white estate-dwelling males, seldom seen in school and never by the exams officer, and I'm not actually sure whose word we ever went with.
    Landofla likes this.
  9. Calpurnia99

    Calpurnia99 Star commenter

    Edit. There is an option on SIMS to decline permission for a photo. Quite often people just don't notice or think it too trivial to tick. If they don't tick "I'm fine with that", I bung them in one of two categories: Said No/ Didn't check box. If the former I always make a note in the note box, and when the census comes round, contact the parent. That sorts out 95% who didn't even see it and don't mind at all. The rest of them have philosophical or religious things , esp about their kids' pics going on what they think is online. I used to reassure them that the pics stay in school but prior to a bit of a data protection hiccup I can no longer offer that assurance.
    BUT almost all of them, once asked, are absolutely fine with their girls having their pics done for exam identification with a female member of staff present, and then masked (a click) within the general database.

    Why ANYONE would have a problem with this I do not know.
  10. Orkrider2

    Orkrider2 Star commenter

    While I appreciate this is your experience of feeling pressured to cover up, that doesn't mean it's everyone else's experience. A friend of mine who was a 'normal westernised student', who was brought up in a Muslim family but who did not ever cover her hair, decided to start wearing the hijab a few years ago. From knowing her now for nearly 30 years, I can confidently say that this decision was nothing to do with bowing to pressure or from a need to conform, but a personal decision based on how she wants to express her beliefs.

    I accept that the pressure to conform is there for some. But where do you draw the line? Should we also ban miniskirts/boob tubes because some girls might feel pressure to dress in a 'sexy' manner, or ban makeup in case they feel pressured into creating the illusion of flawless skin and pouty lips? Ban designer clothes and accessories because those that can't afford them might feel pressured to overspend on these items? It opens up a very uncomfortable policing of (predominantly women's) appearance, that doesn't sit well with me at all.
    Besides, replacing the pressure to conform by covering up with the pressure to conform by not covering up does nothing to address the underlying issue that you pointed out, namely that people are feeling pressurised into dressing in a way they're not comfortable with. Telling women what they can't wear is no better in that sense than telling women what they must wear. Free choice for all is the principle that should be being protected, not just for women who don't want to cover up but feel they have to.

    FWIW, my sister also gets a lot of 'looks' when she walks round her predominantly white area because her husband is black. It's sad and stupid, but it's there and one can only hope that as time goes on society continues to become more accepting of those that don't fit into the more traditional, narrow definition of 'normal'.
    keyboard2, InkyP and Didactylos4 like this.
  11. Landofla

    Landofla Established commenter

    @Rozario123 did you mean ban all cultural coverings rather than religious ones? You end by saying it has nothing to do with religion...
  12. InkyP

    InkyP Star commenter

    I am an invigilator, we have photo ID of all students on their desks with their name and candidate number.

    Edit: I hadn't read your next post.
  13. InkyP

    InkyP Star commenter

    @Rozario123 I understand completely what you are saying but would you want the government to dictate what you could or couldn't wear? I think an edict like this would encourage some to wear the niqab out of defiance.
    delmamerchant likes this.
  14. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    One of the problems with outlawing the wearing of niqab is that you might risk alienating some of very people who are trying to prevent younger members of their community from becoming radicalised, sometimes at great personal risk to themselves.

    Here I am thinking of salafi-quietists within the UK. Not all salafis are jihadists or wannabe jihadists but the vast majority of salafis are jihadists. Outwardly, salafi-quietists look the same. The women wear niqab, for example. However, salafi-quietists are non-violent and apolitical. They don't want to impose their strict lifestyle on others.

    The burden would also seem to be on them as non-Salafi Muslim community leaders tend to be older and out of touch with Muslim youth.

    Incidentally, I'm getting all this from the chapter on Counterterrorism in Peter Neumann's book Radicalized: New Jihadists and the Threat to the West. He notes that the aforementioned leaders are just as clueless about salafism as the rest of us.

    The book is excellent, by far the best publication I have read on this subject and Neumann clearly knows what he is talking about.

    So if UKIP's policy is meant to include the niqab it would seem to fly in the face of recommendations made by specialists in this field.
  15. CraigCarterSmith

    CraigCarterSmith Established commenter

    don't worry the BBC while still allow their regular seat on Question Time so they will never fully disappear
    Geoff Thomas likes this.
  16. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    I notice people saying this...

    So are you really saying there should be wider social pressure instead of government action? I certainly don't fancy living in a world where people approach women wearing Muslin dress and shame them into wearing western garb. That's tantamount to targeted bullying.

    If... and can we all note I said IF... any action is to be taken [and it won't be because this is UKIP] then the best, safest and most legal route is from government. But I know how I'd react if government tried to dictate what I wore and I see no reason why others should suffer similarly.
  17. keyboard2

    keyboard2 Established commenter

    Things should be banned based on your own experiences? Why are you so absolute? What about a bit of give and take.

    Then don't conform.
  18. Calpurnia99

    Calpurnia99 Star commenter

    They already dictate. You have to be dressed in public for a start. You have to remove your helmet or hoodie in certain situations.
  19. Orkrider2

    Orkrider2 Star commenter

    Are there already not certain situations in which a person has to remove the burqa?
    Lots of places have certain dress codes. No shorts. No trainers. No football shirts. No bare stomachs. No bare chests etc... I can't see why any particular institution or company or privately owned space can't specify that faces must be uncovered (though of course, there's a question of how far that would have to go - big scarves? Sunglasses? Eye patches? Beards?).
    But It's a big jump from that to banning certain items of clothing in all public spaces and all situations.

    FWIW, I don't really buy into the idea about the burqa and security concerns. If I really wanted to conceal my identity, I'd wear one of those face masks for burns victims. No one is going to ask me to remove that, and I'm likely to be accommodated and treated with sympathy rather than suspicion and derision. There are a myriad of other ways* that someone could use to avoid recognition to arguably better effect than a burqa but there is never any question of banning those.

    *Things that studies have shown have a significant effect on eyewitness accuracy include, but are not limited to:
    changing appearance after the crime/wearing disguise during (decreases accuracy)
    whether the suspect has any particular distinguishing features (increases accuracy)
    large difference in age between the witness and the suspect (decreases accuracy)
    difference in race between the witness and the suspect (decreases accuracy)
    the witness being unaware of a crime taking place (decreases accuracy)
    using a weapon (decrease accuracy)
  20. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    This just seems to me to conflate two things...

    She has exercised her freedom of expression [a western freedom] to enter into an oppressive system. Thankfully for your friend she still actually lives in the West [I assume] and manages to enjoy the freedoms we possess here while getting to express her faith as she sees fit. If a man was to act as Islam permits him towards your friend he would rightly be prosecuted by our legal system.

    Unfortunately, many of the 700 million Muslim women in the world do not have the freedom to choose to express their faith in such a way.

Share This Page