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Discussion in 'Personal' started by delmamerchant, Aug 11, 2017.
My bad, sorry.
It is if it is being suggested that it is their religion that is a causal factor in their crimes.
As for not being concerned with the victims, I think this is a bit disingenuous. From my point of view at least, it is precisely because I'm concerned with these victims and future victims who may be targeted in the same way that I worry about framing this as a problem perpetuated mainly by one culture/religion/ethnic group in particular. It seems a backwards way of looking at things, where the offender is the focus and not the victim.
Simply presuming that they were targeted because they were white is a) not accurate, and b) does a disservice to the large minority of victims that were not white. It also focuses attention on one specific area, while ignoring many of the more pertinent underlying causes, in turn allowing potential victims to fly under the radar.
What is needed, as far as I'm concerned, is a proactive, protective response to all identify potential victims, rather than a reactionary, retaliatory response that serves only to define victims as one demographic and offenders as another. You could remove every Muslim man from this country and I guarantee that sexual exploitation of white girls, will continue. So to me, it's more important to focus on the risk factors that may predict why some girls (and boys) are likely to be targeted for sexual exploitation and work towards providing a comprehensive framework of support and protection for children who exhibit these risk factors in order to make it much more difficult for grooming gangs or individuals to be successful in their endeavours.
The risk factors that seem to be common to all victims is that they were vulnerable, often from troubled backgrounds, often had been in trouble before, and that they were not listened to or taken seriously when allegations were first brought to the attention of the police (for whatever reason). Finding protective solutions that confound these risk factors must be a priority when it comes to tackling the issue of grooming and sexual exploitation of children. And I don't think that claiming it must be talked about as a crime perpetrated by Muslim men on white girls really moves anything closer to that objective, so it isn't something that I think it's helpful to focus on.
Agree with post 161 @Orkrider2
Many good points.
This is not a general discussion about sexual abuse or paedophilia but a very specific one about the most recent sex gang cases.
No one is framing sexual abuse or paedophilia as being the problem of one culture/religion/ethnic group – where do you get this from?
What is apparent is that these sex gangs in the most noticeable cases of late have religion in common and vulnerable young white women have suffered at their hands – what is it you are not getting? No mention of any women from other cultures are mentioned.
Again, the young women were white in these instances; again what are you not seeing? There is no presumption here, just facts.
If you continue to deny this, then you are the same as those who deemed people racist when this was pointed out years ago and as a result Rotherham continued as people feared being called racist albeit incorrect, should have been islamophobic.
There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that some men from within the Muslim religion have taken their condemnation of how young women live and present themselves in England to an awful extreme.
It appears to me that those who see Trevor Phillips comment as Islamophobic are those whom themselves are tarnishing the whole religion with the same brush, seeing them as one clump rather than individuals form within the religion who have come together to act out their awful denigration of these women. So your comment re removing all Muslim men from the country is totally islamophobic as you are grouping all Muslim men with these despicable ones. Why would you do that. I am not, nether are many others.
Attempts such as yours to broaden the issue, are the reason why this sustained denigration went on for so long and is now just coming to the forefront.
There are no good points in your post in reference to this issue.
Let us agree to disagree.
From post #5 for a start. And many others, but you can look yourself.
In these cases. But the conversation in the last 9 pages has moved on from just these cases and I'm talking about the issue of sexual exploitation and grooming in broader terms. In particular, I was addressing the point that no one cares about the victims. What is banging on about the offender's religion/ethnicity doing for the victims exactly? How does it help future victims? I don't believe it does necessarily (unless of course we start framing it as a Muslim problem, which you were quick to point out no one is doing).
What might help potential future victims however is addressing the underlying causes of these cases, and that means we have to look beyond just these particular cases, and examine why some children are more vulnerable to abuse than others and how we address that. I am not going to apologise for taking that attitude towards the problem.
To be honest, the rest of your rant is just nonsensical frankly. You're accusing me of trying to cover up the issues by wanting to address it in broader terms and protect all victims, not just the white girls? You're accusing me of being Islamophobic because I am saying that grooming and sexual exploitation is not something limited to Muslim men?
I don't agree to disagree at all, I think what you've said is incredibly offensive. But I'm not going to waste any more time on someone who misinterprets what I say to find something to be outraged about.
If a group of abusers are white media stars from the 70s, what's wrong with saying that? If they are Catholic priests, what's wrong with saying that? If they're from a Muslim background, what's wrong with saying that?
Nothing but we don't assume it's all 70s media stars or all Catholic Priests. That is my point. It can be anyone to whom vulnerable children are drawn - teachers even.
Nothing is wrong with it per se. But we don't see headlines about white Christian paedophiles (other than the Catholic priests perhaps, which makes sense because it is their job that helped enable the abuse - in which case perhaps Rotherham offenders should be described as a taxi-driver grooming gang, no?). The identification of religion or ethnicity only when the perpetrators are not white implies that when they're not white and Christian their religion/ethnicity is something to do with it. People may say that they know it's not all Muslim or Asian men, but it frames the crime as something that is particular to that culture and I think that is damaging to other victims of exploitation who may not be white and may not be abused by Asian men.
Nothing wrong at all, but I think the accusation here is that "political correctness" prevents the police from investigating these crimes when the abusers are Muslim/Pakistani. This was certainly suggested in the Rochdale case, but as far as I can see was not a factor in the recent Newcastle convictions.
I think we should refer to them as people rather than men. Not all men are abusers and not all abusers are men.
fine by me.
Really? No one?
"Thanks to former equalities chief Trevor Phillips, and Labour MPs such as Rotherham’s Sarah Champion, it is acceptable to say Muslims are a specific rather than a cultural problem."
"One day soon, if Philip Hammond and Liam Fox are right, we will be back in charge of immigration.
What will we do about The Muslim Problem then?"
Again, my posts are specific to the facts of the most recent headline sex gang cases and are clearly not referring to the issue of sexual abuse in general which is not the headline and hence the focus of my posts which clearly refers to a quote from Trevor Philips, previous race tsar. - it so clear; the facts are clear;
It is those such as yourself whom are unable to understand this and immediately group all men from the culture together - in an attempt to be perceived as treating all people equal - to be honest, not in my name.
There are a group of men from within the religion whom have specifically targeted young, vulnerable, white women. I am flabbergasted at this blinkered attitude that I am reading.
Let us agree to disagree.
You missed my earlier post then?
Such as me?
I only posted two words "your posts". You do not have a clue about my views on this
In contrast, you have posted hundreds and hundreds. Yours are clear.