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treating staff with same rules as students

Discussion in 'Personal' started by afterdark, May 13, 2019.

  1. afterdark

    afterdark Lead commenter

    A personal bugbear of mine. One of several.

    Colleagues who say "Afterall, shouldn’t we aim to apply the same standards to the staff as we insist on for the students?"

    from

    https://www.tes.com/news/4-most-annoying-student-questions-and-what-i-really-want-reply

    and the answer is no

    For example :
    I might be late to a lesson because I had to put out a small fire, stop a fight, administer first aid or because it is a split site school.

    A child should be doing none of these things.
    I am a trained first aider.
    I am a trained fire marshall.
    I am a member of staff.
    I am unsured, or I jolly well should be, by the school/LEA.

    You average school student is none of these things. In fact most school students are none of these.

    But most of all, I am an adult who is and can be held accountable to various quarters.

    Students, even those that are 18, not held to the same standards.

    You see, saying that staff should have the same standards applied as students is part of treating staff as children mentality.

    I have been in staff meetings where foolish SMT members pronounce that staff should never be late. I recall one such pronouncement with great, next time I see a fight I'll walk past it to make sure that I am not late for a lesson.

    I have never heard any logical argument that can convince me that staff should be held to the same standards as students.

    Children will try and use the same rules should apply to staff and students argument, but then again children will claim that "the dog ate my homework".
     
  2. Aquamarina1234

    Aquamarina1234 Star commenter

    My dog ate my marking. And my reports.
     
    sharon52, cissy3, Bentley89 and 2 others like this.
  3. afterdark

    afterdark Lead commenter

    insured not unsured...
     
  4. grumbleweed

    grumbleweed Lead commenter

    My mother was helped by 2 schoolgirls when she had a fall and couldn't remember where she was. What would you have said if said children were late for school ?
    They didn't actually administer first aid but they did call an ambulance and stay with mum, talking to her until an ambulance arrived.
    I do think it's reasonable for teachers and students to be on time, with either having an unusual event that prevents this.

    When I was a student I was furious if teachers were frequently late, just as I was when my former GP was always late even when I was the first patient of the day.
     
  5. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

    I too have always shuddered whenever suggestions are made placing staff and students on a same footing. I always wanted to reply when a child would point out to me that I was wearing jewellery, makeup (rarely), drinking a cup of tea when on duty - that I could drive, have sex, drink alcohol etc and they couldn't ..... but alas I held back.
    I might have pointed out that when a pupil I had to wear a "pillbox" style hat and if seen without it even on my way home by a prefect I could be given a detention! I also described the uniform I had to wear.... my point being "suck it up dear, life will always be unfair".
     
    Laphroig, nizebaby, afterdark and 2 others like this.
  6. afterdark

    afterdark Lead commenter

    Not late to school, late for a lesson.

    As in already there and late for the next session.

    Not sure what you mean by the last part of that sentence.
    Anyway, this seems a suitable juncture to quote myself

     
  7. mothorchid

    mothorchid Star commenter

    What nonsense.
    It seems to have escaped some people (SLT?) that We are the Adults and They are Not. The law does not treat a seven year old the same way as a thirty-seven year old for very good reason.
    Certain aims, such as being prepared for the lesson, being polite to each other, treating the environment respectfully etc should be a given. The rest is trendy guff.
     
  8. Dragonlady30

    Dragonlady30 Star commenter

    Absolutely!!

    I always told the kids that as an adult did have privileges as well as responsibilities. I was allowed to drive a car, get married and sign a legal document, but my responsibilities included driving my car safely etc. Sometimes the kids could see my point!!
     
    mothorchid and Laphroig like this.
  9. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    I think they should be held to the same standards.

    If late (no matter who you are) you should apologise and give a brief explanation. Students should also be permitted to try to explain their tardiness. The teacher is then free to accept their apology and explanation or to deal with the student in some other way. But the student shouldn't be lambasted without having had the opportunity to explain concisely. There are sometimes legitimate reasons for students to be late. I wouldn't want to close someone down when they'd helped a friend who was having a seizure. I'd be delighted that they'd run to the nearest room or office to find someone, take them to the right spot and explain circumstances surrounding the event.

    So, on the whole, I'm all for equality. That's why I always went by my first name with my students. No barriers.
     
  10. magic surf bus

    magic surf bus Star commenter

    It would be nice if anti bullying policies were applied to everybody in the school, and not just the students.
     
  11. les25paul

    les25paul Star commenter

    Teaching staff are adults and almost all students are not. I know that some students can be very adult in their character (and some adults are the reverse) but adults have different responsibilities and therefore different rights to children.
     
    sparklepig2002 likes this.
  12. nizebaby

    nizebaby Star commenter

    Of course punctuality is important in schools. Where I taught, the same teachers were always the last to arrive in assembly and late for their playground duty. The chilrden who often arrived late were usually the ones to be collected late at home time.

    Courtesy is a must for both teachers and children. Swearing is another no-no for staff and students. In other matters, I'm with Dragonlady:
     
    Dragonlady30 likes this.
  13. afterdark

    afterdark Lead commenter

    That is not a reasonable expectation.

    For the very reasons I have already outlined.

    You are confusing manners with expectations. A member of staff can have legitimate reason for being late which a student does not.

    You thought of yourself as a professional? Did you not?
    Were your students professionals? No they were not.
    There should be a professional distance.
    Otherwise you are not being professional.
     
    guinnesspuss likes this.
  14. theworm123

    theworm123 Lead commenter

    If there is one rule which should be consistent, I’d argue it’s mobile phones.

    Nobody in the classroom needs to be sat with their phone on the desk.
     
    Dragonlady30 and border_walker like this.
  15. Mangleworzle

    Mangleworzle Star commenter

    In my experience it was usually management who were late to lessons if anyone. Too short breaks in large schools were always a problem. Get out of your lesson a few mins after the bell went, struggle through crowded corridors to the loo, time to drink quarter of a cup of tea before negotiating crowds to get back again. Of course the latter applied to students too, many of them seemed to spend their whole break or lunchtime just standing in a queue in the dining room, not helped by staff there who happily carried on serving after the bell had gone.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
    afterdark and cissy3 like this.
  16. fraisier

    fraisier Established commenter

    @grumpydogwoman. I totally see where you're coming from and 10 or 15 years ago maybe I would have agreed with you in the main but since then the lines teachers/staff-pupils have been blurred so much, the professionally integrity of teachers has been so utterly battered, the status of teachers has been so downgraded (within schools and outside, with the general public i.e parents) etc. that the approach on these issues has to start with a clear sense of hierarchy being reinstalled.

    But yeah, what I'm advocating might be tantamount to fighting a rearguard battle in many schools, I'm aware of that (of course, I'm all for "having a word" with teachers/staff who aren't conducting themselves professionally at work - being regularly late for instance - but, unlike what I've seen in some schools, never ever do it or say anything or display obvious adverse body language clues in front of pupils, it's so damaging and undermines the whole system, not just that teacher's position).
     
  17. afterdark

    afterdark Lead commenter

    You are taking my point to mean a habit.That is not my point. My point is that you should not be applying the same standards to staff as students.
     
  18. sbkrobson

    sbkrobson Star commenter

    I'd love to be sent home for turning up to school in trainers.
    I'd argue the point, mind, but rules is rules, so.......hey ho, bye.
    (I'd be able to run home comfortably too)
     
  19. nizebaby

    nizebaby Star commenter

    Sorry to have mistaken your point.
    The trouble os that your thread title uses the phrase "treating to the same rules" and rules gets changed to standards.
     
  20. Aquamarina1234

    Aquamarina1234 Star commenter

    Doesn't work. Doesn't matter how polite the excuse and extenuating the circs, I am still required to enter the number of minutes late on SIMS, which generates an automatic sanction.
     

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