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Today's maths

Discussion in 'Primary' started by Moisy, May 11, 2017.

  1. chickenlady4

    chickenlady4 Occasional commenter

    I am sure you are not alone - I have no idea about my boundary pupils. I will predict lower in the TA because that is where I feel they are. If they pull it out of the bag (and boy, did they work hard so they deserve it) then it is all credit to them.
     
    nichomhrai likes this.
  2. CarrieV

    CarrieV Lead commenter

    It's nothing to do with statistical knowledge ( I have a Head with a statistics degree!) but with expectations placed on Year 6 teachers to balance making predictions that are aspirational and realistic at the same time! It's a fine art:D
     
  3. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    Er...It is about 'boys' and 'race'.

    I assume you are not aware that 'white/British working-class boys' are the most underperforming group at the end of KS2, and that this is an issue being discussed at a national level.
     
  4. Sally006

    Sally006 Lead commenter

    Yes, they have been looking at that for the last 10 years or so. Nothing changed on that score then if they still need to look at that data. I often wonder if the same degree of fuss would be made if it turned out to be girls underperforming. Somehow I doubt it would even make the news. However, I'm not suggesting they shouldn't look into data on white working class boys, it's just sad no one seems concerned about summer birthdays. Those kids are not only disadvantaged in academic subjects but also sport. The point being no kid should be written off on the basis of a test taken at aged 10 or be judged at such an age for high profile sports trials.
     
  5. Milgod

    Milgod Established commenter

    You quite clearly have no concept of how results are used as a stick to beat teachers and schools with. Thankfully this isn't everyone's experiences, but it is to a fair few.
     
  6. Ezioclone

    Ezioclone New commenter

    Since you seem to personally know teachers who are being incorrectly and very unfairly judged, how are you helping them? What are they doing to defend themselves?
    Do they really face utterly unfair comments (such as made up by CarrieV): "You said Fred would be working at expected but he only managed a scaled score of 99 so is working below"
    These teachers aren't powerless, passive victims are they? (are they in a union?)

    Out of interest...as I understand it... schools are simply required to report to parents whether their child is above, at, or below expected levels? It doesn't require that schools proactively report the actual scaled score, does it?
    A sensible school would surely report scores (something like 98 to 102?) as 'at' expected level. To report to parents that a score of 99 is 'below' is hugely misleading?
    [I know that overall school tables are based on the 100 scores (and that's entirely reasonable, because it's averaged out over many students), but to do so for individual students is misleading and inappropriate].

    MMT
     
  7. Milgod

    Milgod Established commenter

    If the child scored 98 or 99 the school doesn't have the choice of reporting to parents anything other than below.
     
    Pomz and Sally006 like this.
  8. otters258

    otters258 New commenter

    Given that Ezioclone has no understanding of how results have to be published think we should leave he/she be. There are so many posters on this thread whose opinions I value and this is just a mindless distraction. P.S. Thought maths papers 2 and 3 were very tough and fear the impact on our results. And no... E if they get below 100 that is what we have to tell their parents.
     
    rek45 and Sally006 like this.
  9. Sally006

    Sally006 Lead commenter

    For someone who has been shadowing a Y6 primary teacher last week I'm surprised you did not know that schools have to report the scaled scores as well as whether the threshold has been met or not. I certainly hope that our secondary colleagues have the good sense to acknowledge that a child of 98 or 102 is not hugely different. Please enlighten me as to how your school uses that data. However, it is a "fail" in the eyes of those poor souls who get 98. We do all we can to reassure and emphasise the progress made but to them it as very painful indeed to learn they did not make the grade. Of course failure is part of life's disappointments whether an A'level or a driving test but these are 10 year olds being asked to do, in my view, things totally inappropriate for their maturity.
     
    cassandramark2 and Milgod like this.
  10. Ezioclone

    Ezioclone New commenter

    The contrary is my exact point. The excellent teacher who I worked with *didn't* keep talking about 'threshold' or how the results would be published/reported. They haven't passed such school pressures onto their pupils.
    All they've cared about is teaching as best they could and encouraging the children to do their best for themselves (not the teacher, not their parents, and not the school).

    I'm suggesting that's one of the major factors as to why they had no tears (nor anything like it) whereas others here...

    I'm not saying I do fully understand the full pressures some Year 6 teachers may be under, but that fundamental point (which the thread started about) remains.
     
  11. rblunt9

    rblunt9 New commenter


    If only we had you and your Y6 colleague in all the schools there would absolutely no stress with SATs and parents would be reported that there children are working at the expected standard even if they got below it in the test. Shame on the rest of Y6 teachers for not caring about the teaching as best they could and not encouraging the children to do their best for themselves. You have shown us all the path forward. Thank you for your secondary school insight.
     
    twinkletoes88 likes this.
  12. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    They could be working generally better than they showed in NCT, surely.

    Is the TA not meant to be describing how children have done in class?

    Surely it is not just a forecast of what might happen in NCT week.

    Some years ago, a parent (secondary teacher) asked me if the TA was an estimated level - like forecast grades for GCSE. I explained that what the primary teacher said, with the evidence they had, was the true level. The NCT score was the estimated level. A snapshot that could belie the child's actual achievement.

    I know it is a lot harder now with no level descriptors to go by but are you really saying to children/parents that class work does not prove anything? You do not know anything unless you have the NCT?
     
  13. CarrieV

    CarrieV Lead commenter

    We have to tell the parents the TA results and explain that this is our assessment of where their child is working on a day to day basis. We also have to tell parents whether their child met/exceeded/was below on the test ( and we can't use Ezioclone's "within standard deviation" definitions, just the scaled score result!) and we explain any discrepancy between the two. But that's it for TA judgements. After that they are ignored, the only result that counts going forward are the test results. Raiseonline/data dashboard/Perspective, any measuring tool you use will only take account of the test result ( apart from the assessment for writing) . GCSE targets are set from the test result. So whilst parents might like the TA assessment ( or not!) they are actually more concerned about the test result.
     
    Sally006 likes this.
  14. Milgod

    Milgod Established commenter

    It can mean the world, but still won't count towards the school's stats.
     
  15. Milgod

    Milgod Established commenter

    Ha! Nice dodge on the getting what is reported completely wrong.
     
  16. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    So, you tell parents and children that what you know they can do doesn't matter if it isn't an accepted "stat"?

    Doesn't anyone stand up for teachers' ability to be professional assessors?
     
  17. Ezioclone

    Ezioclone New commenter

    This isn't completely accurate, and stating it as such just perpetuates the myth that Primary schools are helpless and can't do anything to 'change the system'.

    The relevant part of the STA's document actually says (of reporting to parents):
    ' At KS2 it must also include:
    the results of any national curriculum tests taken, including the pupil’s scaled score, and whether or not they met the ‘expected standard’ '.

    Read and interpret it in a sensible, open-minded and non-tick-box manner.
    It doesn't ban you from doing too much at all.
    Yes, somewhere you do need to include the precise scaled score.
    But there's flexibility in how you report whether or not they have met the expected standard. I've searched the web and found Primaries that (last year) reported in 5 categories corresponding to: 'well above', 'somewhat above', 'at expected', 'somewhat below', 'well below'. The STAs document doesn't explicitly say you can do this, but it's clearly quite reasonable to do so.
    Note the middle category, 'at expected'. If you interpret the STAs document very narrowly (and rather stupidly), you could say they haven't actually reported WHETHER OR NOT the pupil has met the require standard.
    The school - reporting it to parents - is quite at liberty (and is probably very well justified) in categorising scaled scores of (e.g.) 99 to 101 as 'at expected'.


    Your SLT teams and governors *can* take the initiative and do this if they wish - but some may just prefer to do what's easiest, not get involved in it, pretend they don't have any option, and blame it on higher authorities.

    I'll leave things there. Not at all sure why a couple of you tried to turn it into a 'Primary vrs Secondar'y thing. I was saying how I'd seen a PRIMARY colleague handle things very well. Not me. Not Secondary.
    I genuinely hope fewer of you have tearful or overly-stressed Year 6's next year.
     
  18. Milgod

    Milgod Established commenter

    I think you're having a different conversation to everyone else.
     
    alexanderosman likes this.
  19. Milgod

    Milgod Established commenter

    I'll respond properly when I'm home, but the general theme is . . .that you're wrong with regards to reporting.
     
  20. Sally006

    Sally006 Lead commenter

    I also think, Ezioclone, that you are on a forum with some very highly experienced Y6 teachers and primary practitioners who just might feel a little patronised by your tone and manner on this subject for a person whose primary experience consists of shadowing one (clearly marvellous) Y6 teacher for one week. I'm amazed they had anyone in during SATs week personally.
     

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