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This Letters and Sounds is just baffling me.

Discussion in 'Early Years' started by mrszzz, Dec 20, 2011.

  1. Why on earth should the chunks/syllables be 'isolated GPCs'?
    Most M/S words are a lot more straighforward to decode than are monosyllabic words. First calm the pupil down (they invariable panic about unknown M/S words) Then, just decode and blend each chunk, get it 'secure' and put the whole lot together. It's not difficult.

    What approach would you favour, thumbie?

  2. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Children are only left behind if teachers allow them to be. No pupil should get to Y7 unable to read.
  3. Yes, I thought I would stir up a hornets' nest!Obviously I agree that children should not reach Y7 without being able to read, unless of course there is an unavoidable reason.This is the reason why I find it so frustrating that we allow children to struggle in the first place, by attempting to teach them before they are ready, in ways that they are not ready for. This actually confounds the difficulties and delays the learning, so that some are still not getting it at Y7. Which is a tragedy, and thank goodness we have people like Maizie to pick up the pieces. I don't think the early teaching is the only culprit here but I do think it is a factor, alongside large classes and an over-heavy curriculum.As for multi-syllabic words. Msz, I was talking about teaching children to read them through SP, which I don't think you do in nursery. Maizie, when you talk children through chunking words I can guarantee you are not teaching them to tackle the words simply through phonics but tapping into something which is more about experience as to how words work not about how letters and sounds work.
  4. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Yes Thumbie so was I ... we begin teaching children how to blend through the multi syllabic word left to right in nursery.
  5. Oh, OK, you know what you do :)Do you mean you teach them to read written and printed multi-syllabic words? By which I mean do they look at the whole word and then work their way through it left to right, or some other method? I notice you say 'begin teaching' so am wondering what 'beginning' looks like in terms of teaching and, indeed, learning.
  6. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    We teach them the process of blending through a mulit-syllabic word left to right heavily supported by adults in nursery - so by begin I mean we don't expect them to read the letters independently
  7. I must admit I am rather puzzled by this, too.
    Are you teaching oral 'chunking' of m/s words or are you doing it in conjunction with the written word (before they have learned any correspondences?)
  8. Go on; you love it, thumbie[​IMG]
    No, I hope I am tapping into experience about how letters work in conjunction with other letters; for example, the high probability that, in a m/s word, a vowel letter followed by a single consonant (or no consonant at all) is most likely to represent its 'long' sound.
    I've just been skimming through a free to download book about Zig Englemann and Direct Instruction. It's a bit of a polemic in places, but it is undeniable that Englemann's Direct Instruction techniques and programmes are extremely successful.
    You might find this interesting:
    'Clear Teaching' Shepard Barbash'

  9. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

  10. thanks for posting the link maizie

  11. I don't know if you'll like it, yohana[​IMG] But it is an alternative idea of education..
    I think I understand and sympathise with your concerns, but it always seems to me that one of the most effective things we can do for very disadvantaged children, in terms of future achievement and life skills, is make sure that they get a thorough grounding in skills such as reading, communicating and 'thinking' and every opportunity to develop their understanding of the world we live in through use of skills they have been taught. I think that with more knowledge and understanding of the world around them people are more able to appreciate and respond to art, music, nature etc All the things which enhance life and make it more than just a daily round of survival...
    I am not convinced that some children have the time or the cultural background to discover much of this for themselves before the 'real world' takes over.
  12. mystery10

    mystery10 Occasional commenter

    I think the same way. Once you can read, assuming you can understand the language in which you read, you can escape your "home circumstances" if you choose to.
    Thumbie, our school might have been unique in its approach to reading. Things have now changed with a new teacher. The approach for child number one was a library book every week in reception, and learning the sound of one letter of the alphabet each week. My DD did not come home with the library book most weeks as the teacher said my daughter did not choose to go into "book corner" and she did not like to force her. Also once a week they chose (for themselves) a pre-reader from New Zealand published 30 years ago with a small number of sight words in it. DD chose the same one most weeks so that she could throw it in the corner at home each week announcing that she had read it before. Most children would now and then oblige by reciting the book if requested.
    No-one explained to parents what they should do at home other than 10 minutes of reading per day - whatever that meant.
    With child number two it was a decodable book once a week. The decodable book did not fit with the phonics being learned at school. The phonics was taught at a slightly faster pace than with child number 1.
    Hopefully our school was unique Thumbie!!
  13. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    My son had a word box with interesting words like a, and, can, in, is, it, look, up, village, three, corners, with, roof, red, door, white while at home he was reading Saracen , missile, weapon, armaments, deployment, financial ...
    he was taught a letter a week starting with a then b then c
    eventually he brought home Roger Red Hat with great expectations

  14. I am actually all for the maximum interaction with children, the most finely woven web of language to be spun with them, phonics, the fine dissection of sounds and rhymes, of words and meanings, of reasons and ramblings in fact language up close and personal that is is the biggest mirror in which we can see our greater possiblilites reflected- and so I am not closed to anything - I'm all for anything ...........
    except that I think the way to motivate teachers (s I myself am often) is by lightng a fire in their hearts rather than using the carrot in front of the nose and stick across the bum, fear rules the day, approach of OFSTED and what passes as SMT activity as quoted in most of the postings across many forums. A picture is worth a thousand words and an impassioned committed heart is worth more than any amounts of paper planning and accountability.
    It is the low expectations of teachers by the powers that be that gets me, Teaching is a path to not only to the art of teaching itself but also to understanding of ourselves, our motivations, our common human experience and of the lottery or birth and place and circumstance, the vaguerities of opportunity, the possibility of the spirit to triumph and the heart to do incalculable good as well as the opposite.
    I have yet to read what I linked to from you but I am already thinking it was perhaps a small scale model, an experiment fired up and driven by the same passions as I mentioned above. LIke all pioneers, risk taking at the edge of what was considered plausible, feasible and acceptable. IN that zone of serious playfulness, there are risks but enormous gains, there is liberty because there is freedom to try.
    IN our schools I dread that lack of space and liberty, the need for certainty that obliges teachers to be mere technicians, the smallest part of their inspirational abilty being called upon -as the greater part doesn't fit with 'action plans' and 'priority grids' and 'whole school self-evaluations' and 'proper professional standards'. Work such as Englemanns? should be offered up as examples to help inspire teachers but not to be transformed into methods or schemes that have to be produced and repeated, policed and measured and its delivery in parcelled lessons assessed and graded .
    In short the whole mechanism of bureaucracy that purports to support 'excellence' seems to do just the opposite to me; encouraging compliance and conformity, mediocrity and malestar. I repeat that it is the suffocating need for certainty, for planning to the nth detail, the weight of prevailing orthodioxies )such as LOs, WILF and WALT etcc) the insistence on measuring and the noose around the neck of accountability to accountants that I dislike. Nothing really to do with phonics but everything to do with the dumbing down of teachers by the technocratic tyranny of statistics, with its insatiable hunger for enumerating.... erm sorry did I just rant a bit. Got carried away on the staffroom wine again. I don't disagree with you Maize, Thumbie, Mystery10 or Msz, but,........

  15. Maizie, I don't think we disagree. Your quote talks about verbally deprived children, which is completely my point. Children have to have the foundations in language and in story and rhyme (and the mathematical language mentioned is part of this) in order to grasp the import of the abstraction which is phonic decoding. I find some children from deprived backgrounds sometimes show a lack of experience of books and story, but that their parents are eager to teach letter sounds, which they see as very important.With the multisyllabic words I feel your strategy about looking at the construction of words has more to do with whole words than with phonics and is based on reflecting on known words and deriving rules. Blending from left to right through a word is not going to give you information about the short or long vowel until you've gone past it, and decided that you are going to have to split the word into syllables, whereas noticing similarities with known words is going to give you a good start (eg comparing lady/baby, happy/daddy). I expectmwe'll have to agree to differ on that, but I do think you're stretching the meaning of SP here.
  16. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    The core rationale of Linguistic Phonics is that children learn to understand the connection between their spoken language and the written word.

    The initial emphasis is on developing listening skills and oral language followed by a focus on phonological awareness so that children learn how to identify syllables, rhyme and eventually, sounds in words.
  17. I think we certainly will, because I see the interaction between letters as being well within the parameters of SP.
  18. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

  19. Who was the link for, Msz?
    A very useful and informative book. I got mine when it was still free to download [​IMG]
  20. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I thought Mystery might find it informative ...I agree mine is very useful

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