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The wonders of science!

Discussion in 'Personal' started by BelleDuJour, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. BelleDuJour

    BelleDuJour Star commenter

  2. minnie me

    minnie me Star commenter

    I read this too and thought how supremely talented these people are and what a massive contribution they make where it really matters . Compare this to those who have neither skill, intelligence or purpose who indeed ‘rake’ it in - insupportable in my view
     
    Dragonlady30 and border_walker like this.
  3. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

    We have a chap around here who daily walks all around the Borough with his Border Collie dog and probably grandchild, before and after school, with bags and a trusty litter picker. He picks litter from grass verges, from hedgerows, pavements, gutters etc and has been doing it apparently for years. There is a whole thread of the locality FB page about him. This is the kind of person who should be nominated and receive a "gong".
    I too am amazed at the skill of some of our doctors. My friend's son in law diagnosed with a spinal tumour has undergone 2 operations of 15 hours duration recently; teams of doctors and surgeons involved. Incredible application, skill and dedication. It is humbling. All the more galling when senior civil servants who have been paid very high salaries and received bonuses - similarly "captains of industry" (Pfffft!) who receive even more..... get the KGBs etc.I fail to see why anyone should receive in a bonus more than someone else's basic annual salary nor why someone should get a gong just for doing the job they were already very well financially rewarded for !!
     
    afterdark likes this.
  4. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    If I work for you and I create £5 million of revenue, what would be a fair amount to pay me?
     
    Bill8899 likes this.
  5. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

    Presumption no 1 that I would be the kind of capitalist who would be in that position. If I were to ever run a business everyone working there would have a share of the business.
    As I said....people's salaries are what they are there to earn. I see no reason for 'bonuses"
    For teachers our 'bonuses' are when our pupils do well, pass their exams, enjoy the subject(s) we are teaching etc. Are we worth less because we don't have access to bonuses? Do we work less hard because there is no bonus system?
     
  6. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Lead commenter

    How do claim that the £5m revenue is due to you? If another individual was in your position, how can you be so sure that they wouldn't "create" £5m revenue... or £6m, £7m etc. Maybe your £5m revenue is actually less than should have been made.
    The fair amount to pay you is the salary that we negotiated at interview. We agreed that this was suitable for the tasks that you are expected to do and these tasks have not changed. If you would like to share in the successes of the company, I would expect you to also share the risks; if you think that you deserve a bonus, do you also accept that, if we lose £5m revenue next year, you will pay an equal sized fine?
     
  7. BelleDuJour

    BelleDuJour Star commenter

    Bonuses are a way of encouraging hard work, and reducing basic salaries, even if the basic salary is high.

    This does sound a bit like the politics of envy.
    However, all is not always as it seems. My ex-husband worked on bonuses, but the target set for his bonus was often as unreasonable as expecting bottom set year 9 to sit Triple Physics GCSE next week and all get A*.
    Remember, a lot of talk about what goes on in industry is via the Daily Mail.

    My issue is more with vacuous celebrities who do little more than breath, and get paid millions.
     
  8. Duke of York

    Duke of York Star commenter

    The politics of envy is a phrase you've used on a number of occasions. I personally think it's just a nonsense phrase used by the likes of right wing journalists to distract attention away from the injustices of real life politics. However, I don't pretend to be an expert. Would you care to explain what the politics of envy are?
     
    bombaysapphire and afterdark like this.
  9. BelleDuJour

    BelleDuJour Star commenter

    DoY it's when people resent those who have more just because they have more.
    And believe we can all have equal and we can sort out the country's poverty problems by simply overtaxing the rich.
    I have no issue with people earning a lot more than me......I'd just like to see salaries for people like these surgeons reflect the true contribution they make to society, and I'd like to see stupid money (like Gary Linneker for BBC) for not so important things slashed.
    Simple.
    BTW life is not unfair, and injustices are surely relative? (much of the time)
     
    LondonCanary likes this.
  10. afterdark

    afterdark Senior commenter

    That is the theory but not how it tends to be in practice.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jan/10/banking-bonuses-britain-curbing

    Quote.
    "
    Many, although not all, bankers and their friends say that high bonuses are essential in keeping talents in an industry that is crucial for Britain. But is that true?

    The first problem with the pro-banker argument is that it regards bonuses as an "entitlement", rather than an additional pay for good performance, so much so that bankers had to be paid bonuses even when the banks they work for went bankrupt."
    Unquote


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...esults-to-social-contribution-or-to-systemic/

    Quote.
    "
    Many, although not all, bankers and their friends say that high bonuses are essential in keeping talents in an industry that is crucial for Britain. But is that true?

    The first problem with the pro-banker argument is that it regards bonuses as an "entitlement", rather than an additional pay for good performance, so much so that bankers had to be paid bonuses even when the banks they work for went bankrupt.

    Unquote
     
  11. afterdark

    afterdark Senior commenter

    But that is not how you use it.

    Me too.

    I don't know about Gary Linneker, but I certainly think there is something awry when footballer players get pay in the millions and surgeons get somewhere between 35k to 100k tops.
    (source https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/surgeon)

    If every professional footballer in the world died tomorrow the world would carry on. If every surgeon in the world died...we would have a lot of problems.

    However generally whenever this is brought up on here there is the cry of "politics of envy".

    Here's an article about a banker claiming to be owed a 100 million $ bonus...

    I question the assertion that these people are the primary reason for the huge profits.
     
  12. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

    I can understand that folk have a go at Linaker and playing footballers.....but they are the visible end of that spectrum. At least we know.... or have a god idea of what they are earning. Yes I agree it is an indecent amount of money. However it is the banker types, stock market wallahs, my aforementioned "captains of Industry" - the people whose bonuses run into 6 figures!!! Alas my capacity for names isn't too great but the chap who brought it about that we 50s born ladies mould miss out on varying amounts of state pension will retire on a pension worth millions. How is that right ? He was a civil servant - well he served us well didn't he ?
    It isn't the 'politics of envy" but of what is more fair. I agree these marvellously skilled surgeons should be well paid but then so should people who go down sewers to keep them working. All people contributing to a fair and well-working society ought to be owed a comfortable retirement and if it means Sir Humphrey Doodahwhatsit not having a pension of a few million a year - so be it !
     
  13. sbkrobson

    sbkrobson Star commenter

    That's not as relevant to whatever you are trying to say as the question of who they are paid by.
    What you "get" depends on who is giving it. Just like all kids "get" a different amount of pocket money. The difference is in who is paying it, not in some intrinsic wrong.
    Your comparison attempting to demonstrate "something awry" would make sense if surgeons and footballers were paid by the same people-which they are not.
     
  14. les25paul

    les25paul Star commenter

    The reason is because other people are prepared for what they do. And very often it is people on average or modest earnings. People will pay to read about celebrities or go to a football match and watch players and often prepared to pay high prices. If they refused to then the celebrities couldn't command such high earnings.

    I'm not really interested in what Kim Whatsherface or a primer league footballer (yes thats right I couldn't even name one) earns because they have got none of their money from me. But thats also being a bit hypocritical because a "small" part of the wealth belonging to Jimmy Page or the Late Freddie Mercury came from me.

    Gobsmacked by the skill of those surgeons. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  15. Duke of York

    Duke of York Star commenter

    OK, thanks.

    I agree with you in principle that where individuals make significant contributions to society, it is appropriate they are rewarded accordingly. Having said that, I doubt financial reward will have been the motivation behind the magnificent work these surgeons achieved.

    I take the view that for some, life is unfair. I'm reasonably happy with where I ended up after a lifetime of hard work, but I'll be the first to acknowledge that I had a succession of lucky breaks that others didn't get. I took the opportunities when they arose and gambled that if I worked hard, those opportunities could be converted into my having a better life than I would have if I didn't take them. I can honestly say I earnt every penny.

    However, I've known loads of people who became wealthier than I was ever able to without really working. I've also known more than enough people who worked hard, but didn't get the lucky breaks and have only been able to survive by taking on debt.
     
    EmanuelShadrack likes this.
  16. BelleDuJour

    BelleDuJour Star commenter

    DoY I too have worked bloody hard for what I've got. At times I've lived hand-to-mouth, at other times I've flown first class and stayed in some of the best hotels in the world.
    What I can say is money does not make you happy. Cliche, but true.
    My pension is tiny, but we shall get by. I know I'll be poor (relaitvely) but happy.
    And I still think these surgeons deserve to be paid much more than they are.
     
  17. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    If that were the case you wouldn't be running it. It wouldn't be yours.
    Bonuses are variable pay. If targets are not achieved., on target
    earnings are not achieved. Poor performance frequently leads to loss of job.
    Because of new regulations limiting the maximum bonus in banking, many people had massive salary increases, in line with your thinking.
    Bonuses are generally awarded to people who make a difference to the profit of an organisation. Hard to replicate in the public sector.
     
    BelleDuJour likes this.
  18. EmanuelShadrack

    EmanuelShadrack Star commenter

    Your pension can't be that tiny, surely:
     
  19. Duke of York

    Duke of York Star commenter

    We share similar experiences, Belle, but that isn't the point. We had lucky breaks and by working hard when we took the opportunity, we didn't have to live hand to mouth.

    Not everyone who lived hand to mouth and put in the same effort we did, gets the lucky breaks they need.

    I had a friend who sadly died recently. He too started off with nothing, but when the opportunity to build a business arose, he took it and became very successful. He had a child relatively late in life, who he wanted to have everything he never had. I don't blame him for wanting that for his child, but what the kid had access to was exceptional.

    My friend was making a fortune and looking to reduce his tax liability in every possible way, so from the earliest opportunity, his son was drawing a salary from the business. A salary below the tax threshold, and claimable as a business expense so far as my friend's tax liability went, but building up a nice little nest egg of cash in his son's bank account for doing absolutely nothing.

    I wouldn't have minded a start in adult life like that, would you, Belle? How many TES contributors had it or could do the same for their kids? It's perfectly legal, but only possible when the means to do it exist.

    My friend's kid is a lovely guy and I don't begrudge him personally of a penny of the wealth he inherited after his father died, but we can hardly call it fair that it isn't possible for everyone to benefit in this way.

    It's only possible to do it when you're outside the PAYE scheme.
     
  20. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    You example is within the PAYE scheme. People owning/running a private company may employ anyone they choose on any salary regardless of work performed.
     

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