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"The Politics of Envy"

Discussion in 'Personal' started by MAGAorMIGA, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    So the problem of a failing of the State to make best use of the dividends of capitalism is to increase the burden of regulation by said State on capitalism?

    Not quite seeing the logic.

    Not arguing that capitalism doesn't need regulation... it was a lightening of regulation by Clinton and Blair that led to the 2008 crash [loosening the standards for mortgages and encouraging sub-prime mortgages]...

    But getting rid of tax avoidance and shell companies? Those have been an intrinsic part of the UK economy since 1945.

    I posted this a while back but I'll do it again:

  2. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    I will come back to SA.

    Do you really think the UK is a country of low corporate taxation?

    Yes Government intervention in markets is required as is taxation but their dilemma is holding onto the employers and creators of GDP when MNCs can locate anywhere even China if they work in partnership with a Chinese company.

    Back to SA, pressure was put onto the SA Gov't due to trade embargoes and boycots on SA goods/services/businesses trading there at the time, Barclays I believe suffered substantially, Cape, John West and Del Monte among others also, public action helped put pressure on our government to take that action which it has been said helped put pressure on the SA businesses and Govt. Every little helps so I wouldn't discount your efforts... You were not alone.
    monicabilongame likes this.
  3. Mangleworzle

    Mangleworzle Star commenter

    Capitalism used to see the sales of unwanted grandmothers and children as production units to earn more money for their new owners. We don't do that any more though as we decided it was wrong. So capitalism was reined in somewhat leading to:
    The avoiders and their lawyer and accountant employees have got too good at it. The poachers have the upper hand. This is why the gap between the rich + super-rich and the rest of us is increasing.

    For a along time the tide lifted all boats and so it was tolerable. Now when the tide comes in, some find they have a leak or no boat. I for one don't want to live in a dog-eat-dog environment where money buys you the biggest dog.
  4. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    I have an interest which tends to be a niche market. I find buying some of the products that I require is difficult but I can source them on-line. This makes it difficult for bricks and mortar shops to provide for me since my purchases are rare. The shop has to pay rates and so on which a company like Amazon doesn't have to pay. Amazon can be fancy with its sourcing and accounting. If Daiwa sells a rod ( my niche interest has nothing to do with latex undergarments or whips) to my local tackle shop Daiwa can do whatever it wants to reduce its tax but my local tackle shop is there on the high street. My local tackle shop will struggle, generally, but Amazon will always provide whatever Daiwa rods it wishes to offer. I either pay a hefty premium to visit my not so local tackle shop and buy a rod which the shop cannot discount as much as some online retailers or I use Amazon. I am a pensioner.
  5. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    I would say that every poster in this thread, including the OP, has got it wrong.

    "The politics of envy"
    "Wealth creators"
    "Strivers and Skivers"
    are all soundbites, designed to be delivered by a politician who can fake gravitas whilst trotting it out (hello BoJo and Govey-Wovey). Then soundbite delivered, the debate can be snuffed out and the next soundbite trips out.
    "Control of our borders"
    "For the many not the few"
    "Education, Education, Education"
    TV news bulletins won't give you any more than a few seconds anyway.

    No idea what the solution is, will anyone pay any attention to the much more reasoned thoughts presented above, would any politician even bother trying to deliver these?
  6. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Does that includes your good self?

    Perhaps your issue is indeed with the thread title... We whittle on about wealth and poverty here but it would appear none of us are in a position to change anything anyway... It passes the time though doesn't it, and enables us all to endeavour to declare how clever we are and how stupid every one else who disagrees with us is. I don't like name calling but it happens here a lot as does scapegoating... It's always someone else else's fault... No one takes the log out of their own eye before attempting to remove the speck in someone else's while posting here do they.

    Reading these posts over the years has done nothing but made me doubt the ethic I grew up with and turn me to consider the opposition to it that is the current status quo as the most viable, so those purporting to support the masses and socialist ideal might want to consider how they actually come across... you've lost my vote... for now at least.

    Meanwhile I will ponder on whether to start the new year reading this stuff or not, I've left TES before for years and although I missed the old personal and entertainment I didn't miss Opinion which ought to have been called politics, but is now called some Personal threads.
  7. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    C'mon, where else can I safely be arrogant away from Maleficent's gaze. I would be very sorry to see you go, I need people from whom I can learn and who school me in such a kind way.
    monicabilongame likes this.
  8. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Very funny Rac... I enjoy the banter but the other stuff is still repetative. I've said it before and people said just don't read it, but as it's on personal you usually have to read it to get the gist then eventually even when obvious that bloody B word comes up... or some other social ill that we should feel bad about not changing when we've no choice till the next election, and even then might have to accept others see things differently anyway as they have the last few GE's. Maybe I will just spend less time checking, I know SSS did and it might not be a bad thing to focus on RL more.

    Then there's my typos and poor punctuation.
  9. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    Yes my issue is with the thread title but I'm whittering about how political discourse is all soundbites and no attempt to discover any deeper meaning, unlike nearly all the posts above. So a problem with many facets that requires a deep political consensus such as the B-word is doomed in this day and age.

    This thread is quite a thoughtful one, especially as no-one has had to invoke Goodwin's Law …….. yet.
    needabreak likes this.
  10. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    Then there are my typos and poor punctuation. No different from me but I keep trying. Luckily, as a little boy of eight, I reached a stage where I could no longer cope brilliantly without putting some effort in and learned to say 'well there you are, more effort required' but girls and women are more likely to be unable not to put the effort in. Maleficent is a perfect example. Join the Brexit threads and post 'Oh Bum!' Of course you will be unable to do that instead of giving a reasoned argument from your knowledge as someone who has worked in and taught Economics, I think. That's that troublesome emotional thing creeping into the argument.
    needabreak likes this.
  11. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    It's Dunning Kruger that explains my posts.
    JohnJCazorla likes this.
  12. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    We've done deeper meanMeanw NGS to death and prob had too much but vino in my case to care about typing, typos or anything that's meant to guilt trip me into feeling bad about the world.
  13. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    So when people complain about 'unfettered capitalism' your point explains how we do not have unfettered capitalism. Which is my point as well. However, clearly I see a failure of the State as being of greater concern than others.

    I'm more inclined to subscribe to the Piketty interpretation. A series of radical, destructive events caused a levelling out of the playing field. So WWI, The Wall Street Crash, The Great Depression and WWII all served to destroy wealth. This levelling out created a false impression of society, one that was reconstructing, recovering in the aftermath of WWII. But once the recovery was achieved then capitalism engaged in it's inevitable universal activity... rewarding some at the cost of others.

    To achieve the level playing field again is going to take similarly destructive events as those that bedevilled the first half of the 20th century. At least that is my fear...

    I also accept Piketty's fear of a growing Oligarchic class... it is not social inequality that scares me as much as a lack of social mobility... if a class of person is to re-emerge, claiming a lofty position based on their wealth, without the ability for others to rise up, or for them to stumble and fall... that sort of society is one we would be best avoiding ... IMO
    JohnJCazorla and needabreak like this.
  14. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    That. I mean this
  15. oldsomeman

    oldsomeman Star commenter

    I wonder if the secret to success is good governance by the government and by companies. Any economics person will tell you Economics is a dismal science due to all actions having a subsequent effect.
    Surely a good economy is a mix of affordable social concern, balanced with the means for individuals to be able to earn a reasonable living if so desired. This latter point is real problem insomuch as there are many parts of the country that do not have big employers, or traditional employment routes have closed. You can expect folk to work if there is no work.So, if having to live off benifits(which when originally introduced where only mean to be a temporary measure till you moved to a new job) you are limited to a basic so-called survival rate(universal credit) This then proves to be not enough for a multitude of reasons and not all because the individual has not started work. They can't move if the can't find ready work and houses and afford the move, nor if they are to be cut off from sources of incomes for weeks if not months.
    Take rates, they go up as supplying services cost more, wage push means more is demanded..which in turn has to be recouped. Why are rates high because local government gets less as central government seeks to balance its books, which results in cutbacks of money and the closure of local services I some of the towns and counties. Often the closure of some services means sources of help are not available. Are local rate charges to be considered ie be allowed to charge more for certain items if clients want them? or would such a move make the poor even poorer. One notices that in some areas there does not seem to be a shortage of money for some services or items, sex, drugs, booze and nights out, but never enough to pay the rent or rates to buy food, etc.. Others are genuine and do struggle, but often the way through the maze of regulations is not clear..a wrong tick in a misunderstood box could result in the loss of a lot of money.
    One could depict many senarios..no shops. Why? Rates. No support from a local council to encourage them to open, so graveyard towns of shops full of charity shops..I have seen those in many places in this country. Yet why are we not encouraging the creative and willing ability of the folk to flourish by encouraging creative use of shops...even one of the credit companies are encouraging folks to use local shops in a Christmas ad. My local council has in many cases recently charged more for business rates!
    Industry, stifled by issues such as non-support, regulations and finances. We don't even encourage folks to save, In Germany, they have Volks banks which are basically savings banks...whose money is used to support industries and developing countries in local and countrywide places. Here you don't meet that encouragement. Its taken us 3 months to get a business account approved for the Local Scout Group and one hell of a lot of hoops to jump through.
    Even if a small builder the same applies, Even if the account is approved the system still tries to control you. This government has slammed new accounting procedures on small business with accounts being demanded 6 monthly. Accounts have to be online, and using IR software that you have to rent from the IR. Alongside that is now a demand that all payments are recorded and preferably paid into a bank account so, I assume, to avoid cash in hand style work and to stop tax avoidance.
    True your account will be up to date, but you do have to be constantly entering data, which in turn takes time and cuts your profitable working time down.
    The problems with finding firms willing to open get harder due, in many cases, to lack of foresight or from a different view, the demands for conformity by goverment.
    JohnJCazorla and Aquamarina1234 like this.
  16. Ivartheboneless

    Ivartheboneless Star commenter

    You did not ask any of those things.
  17. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Obviously I did in that post and my original question remains... What's the alternative?
  18. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    It doesn't need a revolution, but it does need a government with different priorities to the present one, the one which has massively enriched the boardrooms at the expense of the workforce throughout its time in office.
    harsh-but-fair likes this.
  19. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    Where did the £28,000 figure come from? No. What I had in mind was a tax system based not on taxing income and transactions alone, but income and property. We are used to paying for local government through the council tax, which is property-value based. I would use the same system to pay a tax for central government as well, but with VAT abolished.
  20. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    Those well-known socialist organizations Google, Amazon, Apple and Microsoft.
    monicabilongame likes this.

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