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The No Borders Movement

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Alf58, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Alf58

    Alf58 Established commenter

    Who are they and what is the matter with them? Why cant they see that total unrestricted movement of people is not a good idea? I have read their Manifesto on their website and it appears to be extreme Left strangeness.
    Just wondered what people's opinions are.
  2. Alf58

    Alf58 Established commenter

    Clearly this is of no interest to people. Fair enough. :cool:
  3. Vladimir

    Vladimir Senior commenter

    You're posting that on a forum like this? No wonder you get no replies! They don't want to draw attention to themselves after all!

    No borders has really done well for Germany, hasn't it?
    wanet and ConvivialCatMan like this.
  4. Eureka!

    Eureka! Lead commenter

    World government is something worth aiming for in the long term. The trouble is that because it has to be a long term goal, we tend to poopoo the idea - helping to keep the world evermore a crazy place for future generations.

    But even with no nation states I would envisage a degree of planning in who can live where, in order to preserve diversity of human habitat.
  5. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Star commenter

    It could also easily be extreme Right strangeness. A truly 'free market' would permit free movement of labour between countries in order for Adam Smith's 'invisible hand' to balance up supply and demand in the labour market. My understanding is that the EU made this possible as part of what is essentially a neoliberal agenda.

    I suggest you read 'Thing 1:There is no such thing as a free market' in Ha Joon Chang's 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism and perhaps Manfred Steger's Neoliberalism : A Very Short Introduction.

    Both of these books are highly readable and illuminating.
  6. Alf58

    Alf58 Established commenter

    Thanks for the replies, folks.
    I look at this way. If you have an unsustainably large herd of herbivores living in a field which no longer has any decent grass in it because they have eaten it all, would it be wise to allow them into the next field which contained a smaller herd and enough grass to sustain only the smaller herd. Would not it be better to encourage the big herd to stay were they where by supplying them with food and water? Otherwise both herds starve. I don't see why the no borders movement don't get this.
  7. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    I tend not to credit them with any rational thought.
    I take the same approach with the EDL and other such groups from all sides
    sabrinakat likes this.
  8. Eureka!

    Eureka! Lead commenter

    Hmmm your overly defensive posture is making you see the established population of the UK as smaller than the realistic size of any possible migrant population!
  9. TonyGT

    TonyGT Established commenter

    No borders is a great idea for everyone in a below average country (judging on quality of life). However, for those in the desirable countries the question is why exactly aren't the other countries like yours. If the answer is not something natural like arid land and natural disaster then it must be a cultural problem. In that case flooding your own country with those people to improve their lives is only likely to level the playing field and make yours worse.
  10. TonyGT

    TonyGT Established commenter

    More importantly, why didn't the migrating herd bother maintaining their own grass, preferring instead to let someone else do all the work?
  11. wanet

    wanet Star commenter

    Thats how population control works. the problem is that we have reduced the natural barriers to population growth, typically by messing up the worlds ecosystem. At some stage this debt will have to be repaid.
    I tend to agree with you here. Unfortunately attempts at it like the EU have not made much difference. To work properly you need a dictatorship for the common good. Unfortunately dictatorships never seem to work for the common good. As a result I can't ever see it working, despite this probably being the only sustainable solution for our planet.
  12. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Population growth rate is slowing thanks to development, education and wealth.



    More than half of the world's countries are now below replacement levels of fertility (a value of 2.1) .Once Africa starts to develop, things will really begin to improve.
    Burndenpark and aspensquiver_2 like this.
  13. Eureka!

    Eureka! Lead commenter

    No doubt some economic migrants are lazy chancers but the "migrating herd" is largely composed of people who want to better themselves but are unable to because of the prevailing conditions where they live - conditions which they can not do much about - drought, war, pestilence, terrorism, despotism of the worst kind etc. You can't see that because you are cognitively flawed by various evolutionary biases that you seem incapable of rationalizing away.
    Burndenpark and sabrinakat like this.
  14. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    So you are for people moving from poorer countries [drought striken, unable to feed their populations] to the UK? [far richer, able to sustain their population and more as evidenced by our growing obesity problem].

  15. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    You must get bored posting the same stuff again and again. Never quite seems to get through.

    Dr Hans Risling next?
  16. wanet

    wanet Star commenter

    The problem is that no one really knows what is a sustainable longterm population. the agricultural revolution increased it, but at the expense of the environment in terms of fossil fuel use etc. there is still the idea that you need to keep expanding to make progress. Hence Germany invited migrants there. looks like this may have backfired. I seem to recall reading somewhere that we are overpopulated, but being part of the EU mitigates this. Aren't many of the recent wars due to competition for resources?
  17. jubilee

    jubilee Star commenter

    However, if the large herd in the large, arid field are being subjected to bombs, hand grenades and snipers and the field is littered with carcasses and craters, perhaps the small field would be an appealing place of safety. In such circumstances you need to do what is necessary in the short-term and then plan for the future (which might involve the migrant herd being moved to a different place of safety).

    We managed mass migration of distressed refugees far better in the aftermath of WW11, when we were a poorer country! I went to school with the children of such refugees and had one refugee as a teacher (a concentration camp survivor). I can recall NO discrimination against them, not even a cruel word.
  18. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Not sure what all this large field/small field stuff is...

    Syria is 60,000km2 smaller than the UK. So it's a small field being bombed and shelled by a number of larger fields who then complain when people try to get out of the smaller field they've been happily bombing.

    Seems to also to be a correlation between people who supported bombing and people against migration. Odd that.
    Burndenpark likes this.
  19. T0nyGT

    T0nyGT Lead commenter

    *Citation needed

    Even if you were correct are you telling me these places were pretty much the same as the West before their current problems? If not, why not?

    Look at the migrant camp in Calais. Largely Africans who's countries aren't in states of war. They just want to be in a better country. It's comprehensive it understandable but why should the people in those better countries, who's ancestors have worked and fought long and hard to bring them to where they are, open the flood gates to whoever wants to reap the rewards.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2016
  20. aspensquiver_2

    aspensquiver_2 Senior commenter

    The same stuff? I hadn't actually noticed it was the same stuff. If a point is worth making, it's worth making.
    You find it worthwhile posting the same lightweight stuff about Star Trek "again and again".

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