"They ***** and moan about how much more difficult it is to grasp than VB6." Well, yes it is, but that's because it's *limited* not because it's *easier*. What you really do with VB6, usually, is paint some forms and then do some basic coding in response to those forms' events, and maybe link a few together. It's easier because there is so little to it. "They tell me that kids who haven't done any programming at all before uni - which is, amazingly, the majority, find it horrilbe learning the basics using java. Many quit their courses altogether." This doesn't surprise me either. It's like going to University to study Art. If you've never done anything before you'll find it impossible. If all you've done is colouring in with crayons you'll find it difficult. "res ipsa loquitur..." Latin for "I talk ********" ?