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The death penalty - a justice, a deterrent & a mercy

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Vince_Ulam, Dec 13, 2017.


Should the death penalty be reinstituted?

  1. Yes

    13 vote(s)
  2. No

    58 vote(s)
  1. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    If people wish to check their news feeds then they will discover that the last remaining child of the family
    [This comment/section/image has been removed for breaching our Community Guidelines/Terms and conditions]
    , reported by the Daily Mail, and Reported from the opening post, has died.

    May God rest her soul and the souls of her two sisters and brother. May her mother recover
    [This comment/section/image has been removed for breaching our Community Guidelines/Terms and conditions]
  2. red_observer

    red_observer Star commenter

    no one would disagree with that. Well said.
  3. burajda

    burajda Star commenter

    Indeed, but The Law is rational and cannot be about dubious concepts of 'closure' for victims and their families.
  4. TES_Rosaline

    TES_Rosaline Administrator Staff Member

    Hello @lanokia,

    There is nothing wrong with discussing a news story. However, when the news story is about a criminal act where someone has been arrested or charged then the case is active and sub-judice rules apply. Any discussion of the case once proceedings are active could give rise to comments which might seriously prejudice the case. The concern is that a juror could see the comments and this could sway him/her to decide whether an accused person is innocent or guilty.

    nomad and lanokia like this.
  5. red_observer

    red_observer Star commenter

    you mean the person/s who have done this I assume? @racroesus ?
    Of course we think its arson according to the police so anyone who has done this may well have known the children were in the house. If so, and arson is hideous as it is, then they should throw the keys away after they are locked up. I wouldn't know how I would react if it happened to a family member of mine. I have empathy with people in this thread. However, I maintain that mistakes are made in sentencing. Even IF we did have the most perfect criminal law system in the world I would still be against the Death Penalty for not just mistakes being made, but also because we are supposed to be a democratic and civilised society that HAS to remain on the moral high ground. If the state starts killing its citizens, we lose that high ground.
    chelsea2 likes this.
  6. burajda

    burajda Star commenter

    Is there evidence of that in states and nations where there is a death penalty?
    I'm sure there are many factors but in the USA the murder rate is marginally higher in states with the death penalty. I don't know but I should think most pre motivated murders are committed by people who are at the state of mind where they will do it anyway
  7. red_observer

    red_observer Star commenter

    There is simply no evidence that the death penalty deters people. I'm not sure of the exact figure but something like 95% of murders are crimes of passion I think I'm right in saying that. its the 5% of horror murders we hear about. you wont stop crimes of passion with a death penalty. in the USA it doesn't seem to work. We will never stop murder but we need to reduce the rates of it and the causes of that are another story...
  8. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    OK thank you for the explanation.
  9. red_observer

    red_observer Star commenter

  10. TES_Rosaline

    TES_Rosaline Administrator Staff Member

    You're welcome @lanokia.
  11. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    False. There is nothing dubious about victims & their families obtaining closure by seeing justice served upon those who have offended against them:

    'The legal system must uphold fairness in society: both in business and for individuals. We want to ensure justice for victims of crime and better rehabilitation for criminals, with a reduction in the rate of reoffending.'

    Law and the justice system, Gov.uk. Accessed 13th December 2017.
  12. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    This is what I wondered... I had a look for the murder rate ... was only able to find this


    So the graph is interactive [though for you Red it would mean a trip to the Torygraph]

    In 1965 there were 296 homicides PA
    By 1970 there were 393 PA
    By 1980 there were 620 PA
    It peaked in 2004 with 1047 before sliding down towards the modern measure of 550ish

    Now those are raw figures and not done as a ratio of population*. They also don't reflect any urban/rural population shifts, population density and any other factors you might want to consider.

    But there does appear to have been a steady rise after 1965 in the homicide rate.

    * OK I decided to have a go at making them a ratio.

    0.005 murders per 1000 in 1960
    0.005 murders per 1000 in 1965
    0.007 murders per 1000 in 1970
    0.011 murders per 1000 in 1980
    0.012 murders per 1000 in 1990
    0.012 murders per 1000 in 2000
    0.017 murders per 1000 in 2004 [only did that one because it's an outlier]
    0.010 murders per 1000 in 2010
    0.009 murders per 1000 in 2016

    Population data : http://populstat.info/Europe/unkingdc.htm
    2016 homicide figures: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/21/england-wales-homicides-rise-knife-gun-crime

    I AM NOT arguing that the scrapping of the death penalty was the cause of the doubling of the homicide rate [or tripling in the case of 2004] ... but it's interesting all the same.
    Vince_Ulam likes this.
  13. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Anyone claiming that there is no evidence that a reinstituted death penalty will deter murderers must recognise that their sample is biased. The only testimonies in support of their position are from convicted murderers. The opinions of those people deterred from crimes by their penalties are not voluntarily given nor sought. Ask yourselves, when was the last time a criminologist surveyed you on your murderous intentions?
  14. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    **** no.
  15. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    A lot of people seem to cling to the Trooper view of the death penalty.

    " 'Do you really think all this deters crime, Mr Trooper?'
    'Well, in the generality of things I'd say it's hard to tell, given that it's hard to find evidence of crimes not committed,' said the hangman, giving the trapdoor a final rattle. 'But in the specificality, sir, I'd say it's very efficacious.'
    'Meaning what?' said Albert.
    'Meaning I've never seen someone up here more'n once, sir."
    kibosh likes this.
  16. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Is murder the deliberate ending of a human life?
  17. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Yes, but not all deliberate ending of human life is murder

    Murder is outwith the law.
  18. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    So in the context of a judicial execution then it wouldn't be murder as it falls within the law.
  19. kibosh

    kibosh Star commenter

    Are all executions within the law?
  20. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    If they are judicial.

    And if they fall within the legal powers of the person executing their powers... so the US president having a drone strike carried out on a terrorist target [to my knowledge] falls within his legal powers so is a judicial execution.

    Obviously I suspect there is some finer legal nuance to this... but Obama talked about his ''kill list'' LINK but I'm not sure about Trump.
    kibosh likes this.

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