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The big tissue of lies around behaviour.

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by teacherish, Oct 25, 2006.

  1. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    Tarrek - I am not saying that you are wrong in correcting behaviour that is not desirable. In my mind Aspergers is not an excuse for bad behaviour, and ofcourse Aspergers kids can learnto be manipulaitve. I am merely pointing out that the motivation behind the behaviour is not always just to be naughty. Most AS kids would be mortified to behave badly.

    They do experience a need to be in control - it ispart of the disorder and a trait many of them have. For example, my daughter needs to be in control of the games she plays with her friends - so much so that she plans the game to the last detail. Then she is stressed when it does not go to plan. She also is going through a phase where she does not want to be off sick, even when she is ill, because her friend will play with someone else.

    This is not down to her having a controlling personlaity - it is what she does to eliminate unpredictabiltiy and reduce anxiety. Of course she needs to learn that she cannot do this because other people have rights and feelings and thoughts and so on. She, due to difficulties with executive fuctioning/theory of mind, has a hard job understanding otehr peoples needs, emotions and so on.

    I am not necessarily talking about the way you deal with the behaviour, as the true motivation behind it. Do you understand what I mean? They do have a need to control and they have to learn flexibility, but it has to be taught to them - it won't come on its own.

    I see nothing wrong with altering a childs behaviour with the use of reward and so on. Sometimes children have behaviours which there appears to be no resolution to - like the child constantly muttering. This disturbs other people and where it might be acceptable at 8, it is certainly going to be frowned upon when he is 38. It is therefore reasonable to alter/ limit the behaviour where possible.

    I think you have got me wrong - it is very necessary to manage behaviour, increase independence and so on. To do it properly though, you have to understand the trigger of the behaviour.
  2. Then I think we agree.

  3. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    Yes in a round about way I think we do.
  4. Yes, they do see the world in a very unique way, but it's also true to say that they react to situations completely differently. That fact is recognised as those who "internalise" and those who "externalise". It sounds to me like your daughter tends to internalise at school, hence she gets extremely stressed and blows at home. The fact is that many aspergers students don't internalise their feelings in this way. It's interesting because I suspect your daughter actually behaves very well in class providing she knows exactly what she is doing. To be honest as a result I wouldn't necessarily think that she found school so difficult. It's really useful to know.
  5. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    The kids who "internalise" often find school much more stressful than those who externalise. The child who externalises deals with his anger and frustaration there and then; whereas the one who internalises dwells on (perseverates over) that negative experience/thought/idea for the rest of the day, week or month. They find it difficult to find an outlet for their anxiety and often explode when they come home. Sometimes it will come out days later when the child tantrums over something else.

    Very often the teacher will have no idea that his is happening and that is why home/school communication is so difficult.

    Girls too can be different from boys - they are much more socially aware by nature. So girls with Aspergers will find strategies to cover up their difficulties. They would not tantrum in school as this is not socially acceptable behaviour. Some believe this is why there is a higher detection rate in boys - girls develop strategies to cope/ cover up.

    My daughter is a very bright child, she is very aware of her differences and has been for some time. The most amazing things used to cause her anxiety - things you would not even dream would have annoyed her, that her teachers had long since forgotten about, but she perseverated over.

    She is becoming more able now to tell her teacher of her difficulties - which is great.
  6. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    I meant to say home/school communication is so important!
  7. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    Children with Asperger Syndrome can be very rule orienatated, and therefore would be mortified at the prospects of behaving badly in school - they are horrified at other children behaving badly as well.
    I am sure anybody who has experience with aspergers has come across the one who acts as the "class policeman" - telling tales on all the other children.

    However these children are not compliant by nature, so if you have an AS child who is quiet and compliant, it can be as much of an indication that all is not well, as the child who is disruptive. The quiet, compliant one can often be more of a cause for concern!
  8. Noja

    Noja Senior commenter

    Just an added back up for doglover - my nephew has aspergers. He has a broken collarbone and his dad phoned to let the school know and tell them he couldn't do sport for 6 weeks. Communication failed and when he turned up at the games lesson, the teacher told him he had to do it because he had not brought a note. My nephew was not asked why he could not do games, he was asked why he had not brought a note. He does not assume to offer information he is not asked for as any other kid would. Thus, my 14 year old nephew did 2 hours of rugby with a broken collarbone.
    My point is, really, that we ignore these diagnoses at our peril.My nephew should have been asked the right questions. The school know he has aspergers and have been trained in how to speak to him in order to get the right responses. The number of teachers on this thread who appear to be saying that there are lots of children diagnosed "who aren't really autistic/ADHD" etc need to be very careful. It is doctors who make these diagnoses. I cannot see stress/mental illness but I would not assume that a teacher who has time off school because of it was lying in order to have time off, and not all people with stress behave in the same way.
  9. Yes doglover, that's what I'd suspected from the discussions we've been having (internalisers being the ones who get most upset for longest). You are right about communication about being absolutely vital.
  10. BBKF i totally aggree with you... i work specifically with young people who have these kind of difficulties and i find it appalling that children are being taught by some teachers who feel that not every child should be given a chance....shall we also make sure they're all blue eyed and blonde haired?! school hasn't changed that much in the last 10 years.... a good teacher who has the passion and drive to help children and young people develope their potential can teach anyone, my favourite teachers at school were the ones who could engage the whole class with their belief in their pupils and their subject, and i'm sure (or hope!) they still exist. young people and children are given slightly more opportunity of choice and having their voice heard and thats how it should be, just because we are over 19 doesn't mean we suddenly know how to behave.... and some of the comments made hear show that!
  11. just to say i posted the note above after reading a few comments from the beginning of this discussion, so it may not fit in with how it has continued, i apologise
  12. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    Last year my child had a teacher who was newly qualified, after her own teacher went off sick and then mysteriously left(that's another story). She wasn't the most organised teacher in the world and she had things to learn, I am sure - but she changed my daughter's life.

    She hit the right note with her straight away and knew all the right things to do - and when she didn't she sought guidance from me.

    We had a fantastic relationship and at the end of the year, she and I cried our eyes out together.

    She just had that interest in children - and she doesn't seem the type to lose it. I hope she doesn't. Teachers make such a difference to these children - the correct input is vital. I could never thak the above mentioned teacher enough - and yes I made sure she knew that!
  13. Part of the theory behind putting pupils with behavioural difficulties into main stream school is that these pupils will mix with the well behaved pupils and learn from them how to behave correctly. My experience however as a teacher in a secondary school with more than its fair share, in fact an unfair share of such 'special' pupils is that those pupils who would normally behave appropriately see the behaviour of the 'special' pupil and witness the lack of sanctions etc issued by SMT and think 'thats the way to go' and copy the behaviour of the 'special' pupil.

    When i was at school as a pupil i wouldn't have dreamed of telling a teacher to **** off, but perhaps i might have done if an the school had fostered a culture in which that kind of behaviour was acceptable or earned you extra TA support or had you shepherded onto some day release college scheme. Perhaps if i had seen the same band of idiots disrupt lesson after lesson swear at teachers and still be allowed in the next lesson with little or no concequences to their behaviour i may well have been tempted to join in.

    I am someone who came into teaching in their thirties after several years doing the sort of jobs that a lot of the pupils i teach in my sink comprehensive will end up in (factories, warehouses, building sites etc). I am sickened that we are churning out a generation who believe they can behave as they like without sanctions. In less than a year a lot of the kids i teach will be entering the workforce whereby no dispensations are made for having been raised in a one parent family, ADHD, EBD etc. In a lot of the less cushy areas of the workforce two things are likely to happen if you tell your boss to '**** off' either you get sacked or smacked, possibly both.

    PS: Also the govt has made a huge cost saving by closing special schools.

  14. hav only got as far as post three, and Brettgirl explains why the closure of special schools and mainstream education for all is a complete disaster.

    Has any teacher been trained to cope with thirty kids, many of whom have very special needs and are extremely disruptive bcause of them? Could any sane person say...oh that's OK...we'll put all these loud, disruptive, inattentive, slow, parially blind, wheelchair-bound, tourettes kids in a room together and yes, that teacher will manage AND deliver the lesson. She'll have a TA in the clas with her though - so that's alright.

    Discipline in most schools has gone to pot. In hundreds of comprehensives up and down the country many kids are cheeky, lazy, inattentive and rude .There are not enough hours in the day for effective discipline and individual attention. No one teacher can follow everything up successfully or effectively deal with those special needs when he/she is overloaded in this way. The pleasure of TEACHING has been replaced by the stress of coping and developing a thick skin. Some rudeness/abuse just has to go over a teacher's head unfortunately...because it is commonplace almost to the extent where it is the norm and not punished.
  15. jubilee

    jubilee Star commenter

    I spend a lot of time supply teaching in schools or pupils with Moderate Learning Difficulties. The pupils have Autism, Aspergers and other Learning Difficulties often associated with behaviour problems.
    The two schools are a haven to work in. There is lots of TA and HTLA support in the classes and tthey remove a child at the slightest sign of disruption. It hardly ever happens.

    I often think that the pupils there will have been educated enough to hold down a job , which is more than can be said for the pupils who constantly disrupt education in mainstream and blight the prospects of their classmates in the process.

    The staff at the MLD schools often comment about pupils who join the school after exhausting their many chances in mainstream. The story is always that the parents had resisted Special Education for years. When they finally agree to it, they cry at parents' evening and when reading their child's report as they have just received their first positive comments about their child in the education system. The regime does not tolerate their outbursts and petty disruptions and almost all of them back-down and start to make progress.
  16. Some fair points made in this thread, kids work their ticket and we have to do our best but as teachers we're (supposedly) fairly intelligent.
    Therefore a large percentage of us would have been in upper sets, or even selective schools and, as a result we would not have experienced some of the more serious 'yobbish' behaviour. Now I'm not saying only less able pupils misbehave but there is a strong correlation, at least in my limited experience, between the two.
    This, combined with the decline in special schools and 'naughty boys' schools means many young teachers (and I count myself in this) are shocked at the behaviour we are suddenly presented with
  17. Have to agree! I don't think behaviour has actually got worse in schools. Children do the same things now that I and my friends did when we were at school. However, the lack of respect and level of pupil responsibility has changed. When we got caught we were scared, but we held our hands up, took the punishments and vowed not to get caught the next time!

    In schools today children (especially boys) sulk, cry, lie and deny any involvement. "It wasn't me" but I SAW YOU!!! Tell them they storm off and get a cuddle if they come back and sit with their learning mentor!

    Avoiding conflict, time out, ignoring negative behaviour etc... We are just creating a monster!

    School policies that state you must not shout at a child because it will make him angry and he may kick off!! What!!! At times I see / hear teachers virtually begging children to behave! God help secondary teachers!
  18. jubilee

    jubilee Star commenter

    Behaviour has definitely got worse in schools. My father can't believe what I have had to deal with. He entered teaching in the mid-1940s and taught in a general school in a working class area, with pupils from 5-16 years.

    I went to my old school reunion 3 years ago and was relating anecdotes to my former teachers, some of whom had spent their final years before retiring on the supply circuit (in the 1980s). You've never seen jaws dropping like I did that evening!
  19. It's a bit of both: on the one hand, I am sick of excuses and craziness ('I have had such a stressful day', 'My sleep patterns were disrupted by Christmas', 'That's unfair, Miss, I'll take you to court.'...). Sick of hearing for every bit of bad behaviour that 'There are underlying problems' (but I, as a normal teacher, am not allowed to know of these arcane matters).

    But today, as I told off a disruptive Year 8 after a lesson of bad behaviour and leaping around, first he shouted and stomped, then he started to cry and say he hated the school. Didn't want to talk about it (unsurprisingly) but I have to say, having been pretty cynical about 'issues' today, I did realise how many other factors and how much misery there can be behind a child's behaviour (not an excuse, but a reason, I guess).
  20. "Issues" may explain bad behaviour but they certainly don't excuse it. Whatever their problems students cannot be allowed to be rude, challenge authority and not get on with what they are supposed to be doing.

    Have we gone too far in schools in getting involved in students' problems instead on concentrating on what we are trained to do-m preparing students for the academic and voational qualifications which will lead to work. I have a colleague who teaches in the state sector in Germany and she is amazed at how we get involved in students' lives: their attitude is, "Leave at the gate on your way in". I'm not unsymapthetic but todays young people need a severe reality check. Instead of always going on about their f*cking RIGHTS, they should start thinking about their RESPONSIBILITIES one of which is to **** and get on with the work.


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