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The big tissue of lies around behaviour.

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by teacherish, Oct 25, 2006.

  1. Unfortunately, people get very confused about 'reasons' for poor behaviour and 'excuses'.

    It is fact that a child who comes from a terrible home is more likely to misbehave at school.

    That 'reason' for their behaviour is not an 'excuse'.

    They MUST be treated in exactly the same way as everyone else.

    Likewise with aspergers or ADHD children (who can come from lovely home environments).

    I do not discipline my aspergers child in any different way. If he steps out of line he receives the same sanction as anyone else would.

    He knows this - he tested me plenty of times in the first few weeks. I thought he would never get the message - but he did.
  2. eha


    mrs piggy: I didn't mean to imply that the onus for improving the ethos of the school should be on you-- I can well understand your reasons for not reporting the incident. And yet, it's a very significant incident: it tells a whole lot about 'team' spirit; 'whole-school policies'; 'the hidden curriculum'-- God knows what else. The horrible truth is: you can be Supernanny and Mary Poppins rolled into one; you can run your classroom like something out of 'Soldier, Soldier'. And it won't make a blind bit of difference UNLESS YOU HAVE MANAGEMENT BACKUP. If the whole school community is engaged in undermining each other like the unprofessional, ignorant bossyboots who undermined you, what does the management think the kids are going to learn? Doesn't sound like a nice 'professional' environment; but you're bearing up, according to your other posts. Hope you get the recognition you deserve.
  3. Thanks for your message eha, it's really good when support is accessible on forums like this, even if it's not very accessible at school. And I'm not even the one who placed the original post!! Thanks again.
  4. I think Tarrek's analysis of the difference between reasons and excuses is spot on.
  5. teacherish

    teacherish New commenter

    I started this thread.

    What it comes down is the fact that everyone in this earth decides what they do.

    Poorly behaved students decide to behave poorly - whether it is swear, throw, truant etc.

    They may have bad examples at home, however clear lines are drawn in school about what is and is not acceptable.

    Individuals decide to cross the line.
  6. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    Tarrek - ypu obviously have no understanding of aspergers at all. The sad thing is that this child probably does sharpen his pencil, because you make him, but you obviosly have no idea the effect that this is probably having on him. He is probably stressed about this for hours after - there are many reasons why this child does not like to sharpen his pencil - the sound may be excruciating to him (even though you cannot hear it!); he may not like the smell of the sharpenings; he may have poor fine motor control and therefore find it hard to do; he may not know exactly how far to sharpen it; it may break if he goes too far leading to frustration. If you look deep enough you usually find a reason why they dislike doing something.

    But as long as it makes you happy to have the attitude that "you'll show him" - you don't seem to worry about him. I wouldn't feel in the slightest bit proud of the way you treat this child - you should be ashamed!. It's people like you who makes these kids life miserable - it would be little wonder he misbehaves in your class, he is probably completely stressed out!!!!!!!!
  7. doglover - your post is hysterical.

    My 'aspergers' child is a wind-up merchant.

    He gets absolutely everyone he possibly can wrapped around his little finger.

    You have no idea.

    He had EVERYONE convinced that he could not sharpen pencils - and look! - he's even convinced you.

    You would have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

    That is exactly what the orginal poster was trying to say.

    He is happier in my class than he has ever been. He thinks I'm a good teacher and so does his mum. When I told his mum about the pencil sharpening incident she fell about laughing and told me he'd never had any difficulty sharpening pencils at home!!!

    He is working for me instead of storming out of the room every five minutes as he used to.

    I give him no choice - and he respects it.
  8. And I would go further.

    Your post clearly demonstrates the ignorance that persists in our schools today.

    There are FAR too many teachers who excuse poor and ridiculous behaviour instead of saying - 'No! This is how you are going to behave with me.'

    Children need love and care and patience.

    But many of them also need firm discipline, guidelines and sanctions.

    They respect you for it in the end.
  9. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    I am not a teacher - I am a parent, of an 8 yr old with Aspergers

    I would not have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. I would have looked at the reasons why he felt he could not do it and tried to find a stress free way to do it!

    Yes - kids with Aspergers do need love, care and patience and it is not an excuse for bad behaviour. If only it was as simple as you make out though!

    I can guarantee you the child will not respect you for not recognising their needs!
  10. With all respect to you doglover, as I am convinced you are an excellent parent to your daughter, you are assuming that all children with Aspergers display the same characteristics to the same degree. From experience of teaching quite a large number over a few years they don't. Surely helping him to cope in mainstream life is very very important?
  11. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    It is very important Brettgirl but not by walking roughshod all over them - that is the point I am making.

    One of the most important things I have learned is that you can only teach kids with Aspergers to be independent when they are ready for independence. Try and force it too soon, and you get all kinds of problems.

    Believe me I worked with an ASD support teacher who tried to force independence on my daughter, in areas where she wasn't ready, and insisted she did not need a TA. It resulted in school refusal, anxiety and low self esteem. Six months down the line, because eventually the Education Board (LEA) listened to us, with 15hrs TA and support where it is required, she is a different child.

    I see it from both sides. My daughter is far from mollycoddled - I would do her no favours in doing so. We work well with her teacher and she's doing well. We weigh things up and handle appropriately.
  12. doglover - I am sorry I did not realise you were a parent.

    Parents view things in very different ways to teachers.

    If we treated children as though they were our own, with all the love and care of a parent, we would not survive for five minutes - as I'm sure you can appreciate.

    I did look at why my aspergers child could not sharpen pencils. And I found the answer!!

    He has a controlling personality. He tries to control everyone and every situation he is in - however he possibly can.

    The first thing I had to do as a teacher was to make it blatantly obvious that he was not, under any circumstances, going to control me.

    No child is happy when they are in charge of an adult. It is a bizarre thing - children will always try to control situations: they want to stay up late, they want to watch more TV, they want to do their homework tomorrow instead, they want an extra biscuit etc etc.

    But even though they all try to get that control - none of them are happy unless we (the adults) take that control away from them and provide them with firm guidelines to follow.

  13. I'm not saying your daughter is mollycoddled - I think from your posts on here you are absolutely committed to get the best out of her and she is a very very lucky little girl. My point is that you are basing a lot of argument about Aspergers on one person. I would have no doubt as a teacher that you knew better than me how to deal with your child. BUT, you can't advise me on how to deal with all Aspergers kids just based on her. They are all different and have different degrees of it. This child probably was ready to start sharpening pencils, I've also though come across cases who needed probably more careful handling than your child. Strangling with tie/want to kill myself. I've also taught Aspergers children who were naughty and needed firm discipline. They would have been naughty if they didn't have the condition - teachers can't let them be naughty and be a special case. I could keep on but all the different reactions/characteristics would just take too long to list. The bottom line is that they aren't just "Children with Aspergers" they are also more importantly "People"
  14. That is very true Brettgirl.

    I have often thought that my aspergers child would be an exceptionally naughty, attention seeking and immature little boy without aspergers.

    It's funny how a firm hand magically removes many of his 'aspergers' tendencies.
  15. cleggy1611

    cleggy1611 New commenter

    Going back to the original post, I agree that many children are lazy and rude. Can't we just bring back the stick or would I be hounded by the pc brigade?
  16. You would be hounded by the PC brigade!

    But seriously, I'm not sure of my grounds on this, but I'm not sure that today's teenagers would still be 'scared' of this physical discipline not to misbehave - and anyway, is that how we want to discipline? By scaring? Most of the kids are bigger than me - I haven't got a chance in that department, and I actually enjoy having some kind of a relationship with them that I'm not sure would exist if the stick was brought in to it. However, I'm sure they'll be some people who will disagree... open to suggestion!
  17. I've taught classes made up of pupils with varying degrees of special needs and classes in schools with an inclusion policy. The pupils in the 'special needs' classes were much better behaved and keen to do their work on the whole. At the moment, though, I feel that the decent pupils and those with special needs are being denied their education by those who CHOOSE to misbehave.
  18. Doglover

    Doglover Occasional commenter

    Brettgirl2 - I do not base my argument on my knowledge of one child. I base it on the knowledge of many children with Aspergers, who are all very different. You are right they are first and foremost individuals - but they are individuals who view the world in a very different and unique way! That, you cannot get away from.

    As long as people remeber that - that is what is important.

    All children do need to have rules and boundaries, and especially those with Aspergers, Tarrek. But you come across as very arrogant - I am not saying you are, just that is way the psoting makes it seem. You do ofcourse understand that this childs desire to control the situation is ot down to the fact that he has a "CONTROLLING" personality - it is a trait of Aspergers. It is their way of dealing with the difficulties they have with interaction with people and the fact that they find it very difficult. It is also a way of reducing the unpredictability of situations for them. It is probably a sign of stress and anxiety. But then of course you know that don't you?

    It sounds more like an argument about your need to be in control. Is there a difference between control and independence? Don't children need to learn that?

  19. Yes - of course it's about MY need to be in control. I'm the teacher!! I can't do the job unless I am in control.

    You seem to be saying that an aspergers child has a 'need' to be in control, that it is a fundamental part of their personality, and that we are somehow damaging them by denying it.

    If that were the case (and thankfully it is not) it would be utterly futile having any aspergers childen in mainstream education, since they would be impossible to teach.

    I am not for one moment suggesting that you can remove all the difficulties and stresses that a child with aspergers experiences. I am not saying it's a piece of cake educating them. I am not saying their condition is just imaginary.

    But!!!! The behaviour that my aspergers child exhibits is an exaggerated form of behaviour that would not be tolerated in any other child. It does him no favours whatsoever to tolerate it in him. Yes - he finds it harder to control his behaviour but that does not mean for a second that we should turn our backs and allow him to be badly behaved 'because he cannot help it'.

    It means that 'we' as adults have to work twice as hard to show him how to behave appropriately.

    If you knew my little boy you would also know that he is a manipulative little so and so.

    Hey! Some kids are!

    There are plenty of kids with no labels who are manipulative as well - all kids are to a certain degree.

    But a child having a 'label' does not give them the excuse to exhibit whatever behaviour they want.

    I once taught a little boy who came to my classroom with a 'report' from a specialist that said he was unable to stop mumbling and muttering.

    Apart from this 'abnormaility' he was a completely normal little boy.

    I explained to him that I wanted him to stop mumbling. I told him why. I gave him rewards when he did it. He had sanctions when he 'forgot'.

    That soon cleared that up.

    This does not mean that every child on the planet can have their problems solved by a firm hand.

    But it does mean that there are plenty of children out there who merely need a bit of guidance and firm discipline despite whatever rubbish has been written about them.

    And as a primary school teacher, believe me, I have read some utter rubbish in so-called specialist reports in my time. (I suspect you have too if you are the parent of an aspergers - I know my child's mother has).

    You would probably attempt to make me out as a callous, uncaring teacher for demanding that an SEN child should stop exhibiting his 'special need'.

    But I would argue that I did not want a healthy, normal, intelligent little boy growing up with a bizarre behaviour trait that I was convinced he would be able to do something about.

    If I had listened to the experts he would still be out there now mumbling away.

  20. OP - teacherish

    Totally agree and then we also have apart from the teams you mentioned such as LEA, Social Workers etc people like those in this article:


    yes UK is going downhill as far as education is concerned and I have just come back from seeing students in Germany and other European countries

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