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The big tissue of lies around behaviour.

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by teacherish, Oct 25, 2006.

  1. Is behaviour really that much worse than in the past? Or, has your perception of events changed?

    I still have difficulty in understanding why people are resistant to the diagnosis of x disorder (usually of a developmental nature). Rather than seeing it as an 'excuse', surely it is an explanation for whatever behaviour? This makes your job easier, because it gives you tools to deal with it: even if you don't choose to acknowledge that they are dyslexic/dyspraxic/ADHD/ASD, they won't change to become perfectly behaved. Why is it difficult to acknowledge that someone is more knowledgeable about a pupil than you are?

    I honestly think that is the crux of many teachers' arguments. They find it a challenge to accept that parents/other professionals know a child, and can make a decision about them without their consultation.
  2. friendlywithteeth - a diagnosis of x disorder may well be an explanation for x type of behaviour, but it still does not excuse the pupil using it as a reason to be more disruptive, as some I believe do. I feel that what we lack as teachers is real and proper guidance on how to deal with not just the individual pupil, but the individual in the context of a whole class. I would certainly never presume to diagnose a pupil by myself - there is no way I have the expertise to do that - but I find it really difficult to use the strategies suggested by the SENCO to deal with such pupils when their behaviour is to the detriment of the rest of the class, and nothing I try seems to be able to stop that.
  3. Agree with most of above.

    There is never an excuse for poor bevaviour. If you want to see real social problems i suggest going to baghdad, egypt, congo etc.

    The UK has become the ultimate soap opera society. Everybody has an excuse for their violence, laziness, rudeness etc. As a result no-one is held accountable for their behaviour/ actions and alleviated of all responsibility for their actions.

    This disgusting tolerance of appalling behaviour in schools creates a sub-class of violent, rude, unpleasant younger generation who act with impunity and total contempt for others - the world evolves around them. They have become so indulged for their perceived problems in school, that this also tansfers itself to when to when they leave school. The results are ******** like chavs, hoodies, gangs on corners, street crime, parasites on the benefit systems

    Again they are never held accountable for their actions, they feel they are untouchable. This is what the UK has become. And, all the decent kids and good citizens, well screw them - the rights of criminals and young ******** are far more important to these 'bleeding hearts', liberal politicians, education psychologists.
  4. I actually find your posting rude, intolerant and aggressive by labelling professionals and young people as such, mad hatter - you must be a fantastic role model for your pupils - perhaps that's partly where they are learning their "disgusting and appalling" behaviours from...
  5. I don't find that post offfensive- I missed the bit where he labelled professionals.
  6. Tibbet - I quote from post 22 "the rights of criminals and young ******** are far more important to these 'bleeding hearts', liberal politicians, education psychologists".

    I would assume my comprehension of the above, labels educational psychologists (to use the proper title) as somehow not doing the role that they are actually employed to do, which if you are not clear is as follows, rather than being associated with bleeding hearts etc etc:

    EPs promote learning, attainment and the healthy emotional development of children and young people aged 0 to 19, through the application of psychology, by working with early years settings, schools (and other education providers), children and their families, other local authority officers, practitioners and other agencies.

    I would've thought that the aims are not very different from a teacher is it? (unless of course, like some of the posting on here you may not apply psychology).

    Also glad you didn't seem to find young people being labelled offensive...
  7. I found much of mad_hatter's post true.

    IMHO there certainly seems to be an attitude amongst some (and some of them are professionals that are supposed to help pupils AND teachers), that the rights of good law abiding people, pupils that want to learn and do not disrupt their classmates and teachers that want to teach, are overridden by rights of those who are not.

    I have seen classes where the learning of 29 pupils who want to learn and leave school with the best qualifications they can, has been totally stopped by the behaviour of one pupil who does not. The disruptive pupil cannot be excluded from school because thay have a 'right' to an education but so do the other 29, what about their rights? This is where the problem lies, the rights of the silent majority are to often being ignored, in favour of the noisy, disruptive and violent minority.

    The majority of EPs try their best to help but there is not enough of them around (in my opinion). This is not their fault but like so many problems in the education system, is probably due to a lack of funding.
  8. I agree with you miss_piggy, it shouldn't be a tool to manipulate those around them, but there are still ways for pupils to take ownership of what they do, within the context of a behavioural system rather than a disciplinary system, the difference between the two I think is not a lack of 'teeth', but is about separating the behaviour from the child, that they can do things well as well as make bad choices.

    mad_hatter, I think it depends what you think is an excuse, and what an explanation. If a child has an acknowledged condition, it can help you in managing their behaviour, because it can help rule what is effective, and what not. If a child is aggressive, is it an emotional issue from home, or is it the high level of anxiety that goes along with Asperger's Syndrome going beyond a level of coping?

    Also, is this 'subclass' really something new? In the 1950's, there was a similar moral panic about Mods and Rockers, that they were degenerates etc. Are chavs, goths, emos et al an extension of this theme?
  9. BBFK
    why would you be offended by my criticism of people who disrupt others, use violence, and sponge of the benefit system/tax payers - these are the same people who are attacking us in classrooms (well not me since i teach overseas - learnt my lesson afetr 4 years in essex etc).
    Secondly i never talked about 'professionals', but there is definitely people (such as certain politicians, SENCO's, etc) who are willing to allow these children make life hell for others, and explain it all away with a label, or a sob story - this merely perpetuates the problem and encourages it.
    Moral - if you tolerate bad behaviour, you get worse behaviour and
    criminals thrive of on societies indulgence and 'understanding of their problems.

    Finally Friendlywithteeth, there is never an excuse for poor behaviour. Having ADHD etc is not an excuse for swearing etc - it simply isn't.
    The schools that i've worked in that adopted zero-tolerance were the most effective. Basically everybody was treated equally with the exact same expectations. It didn't matter if you came from a difficult background. You were expected to behave and if you stepped out of line you were punished, like everybody.

    A huge problem is that certain students are treated special, and thus certain rules don't apply to them. Total nonsense. Rules should not be bent to cater to students, students cater to the rules.
  10. m_h,
    I'm not excusing behaviour, I'm looking for reasons behind it, so I can understand it. This means that management it far more effectively than taking a one size fits all approach. Do you expect all pupils to be at the same level academically, in every subject? Corresponding to this, why should every pupil be behaviourally the same, in every subject?

    I'm not suggesting that children with ADHD etc.'s behaviour isn't combatted, but surely the best way to manage/modify behaviour is to look at why the behaviour is occuring in the first place. This is broader than those with a disorder, but kids who are misbehaving because they are bored/aren't interested etc.

    Rules shouldn't be bent for children, but shouldn't they be created for them?
  11. I would like to pick up on something mrspiggy said - I actually get quite fed up with the reason being given for an Aspergers child not coping in my lesson that I haven't had enough "training" or "guidance". The problem is that the child isn't given enough support and that is the fault of the system. With 28 other kids in the class there is only so much I can do in the allotted 2 minutes time per individual student per lesson. Training does not solve everything - except HT's and the media seem to think it does. I agree entirely that whatever happens no diagnosis or problems in upbringing should be allowed to drag down behaviour standards in the classroom. If nothing else kids with ADHD/Aspergers actually respond best in my experience to a highly controlled environment with clear rules.
  12. Well as for labelling young paople you missed an important part from your quote.
    "And, all the DECENT kids and good citizens, well screw them - the rights of criminals and young ******** are far more important to these 'bleeding hearts', liberal politicians, education psychologists."
    Oh- liberal politicians and educational psychologists you call them professionals. Sorry didn't realise!
  13. eha


    Post 13: mrs_piggy

    "a couple of weeks ago I asked a pupil to tuck in his shirt. A cover supervisor walked past at the same time, and said, loudly, something along the lines of 'No, don't worry about your shirt, I'm sure Miss would rather you stayed in school... wouldn't you, Miss.' I didn't know what to do"

    What's your school policy on harassment? Does undermining of a teacher count as harassment? Did you report the incident to Management-- although I can imagine the uproar if you did try to defend yourself. Do you have any other colleagues who have similar experiences? I think it's up to us: we have to create our own support groups. Is it any wonder the kids are the way they are: look at some of the role models!
  14. tibbett (post 31).

    Ho ho ho - can you not see the amusing irony in your own posting? "educational psychologists you call them professionals. Sorry didn't realise!" Can you not see that this in itself is rude, arrogant and bullying?

    It defies belief that you have the temerity to accuse your own students of being rude when you so perfectly present with and model such behaviours yourself - but don't worry as a psychologist I have some understanding and empathy for your difficulties...

    I would attempt to engage in a "professional" discussion at this point on the issues (i.e. one that is an evaluative and reasoned discussion, rather than hurling around cheap jibes to make oneself feel better at the expense of another), but in the same way you point out that you cannot reason with rude, aggressive students who have something to prove (and indeed why should you, I am sure you would say), then why should I?

  15. "If nothing else kids with ADHD/Aspergers actually respond best in my experience to a highly controlled environment with clear rules."

    That IMO is a very important point Brettgirl.
    You really aren`t doing students any favours by not allowing them to take responsibility for their own behaviour.
    Re "professionals" - time in school is so short that you need to quickly work out which ones are worth listening to and ignore the others - like teachers there are good and bad ones.
  16. Definitely, I agree. It mainly seems to be just excuses.

    There was a boy I taught last year in Y9 who was SO rude. I was an NQT so I guess he thought he could get away with it. They decided he was autistic and had ADHD. I think that is an insult to truly autistic kids. He knew damn well what he was doing. Apparently he was good as gold at home. He CHOSE when to behave and when not to. I don't think that's a marker of an autistic child. Anyway, he had about a million points on his behaviour log and nothing ever happened to him.

    There are some kids who are genuinely autistic and DON'T misbehave. There are also some incredibly low ability kids who are beautifully behaved and incredibly polite, so no-one can use the old 'they're not accessing your lesson which is why they're misbehaving' excuse. I think kids misbehave because they want to and they can.

    At my school, bad behaviour is not dealt with severely enough. SMT don't do enough. I am so frustrated with logging incidents and not seeing any outcome. If I am called a b*tch I expect the child to be punished.

    Anyway, I am 29 and I think behaviour is appalling these days. It certainly wasn't like that when I went to school.
  17. I work with an 'aspergers' boy who, among other things, arrived in my class in September unable to sharpen pencils because, according to all his previous teachers and the SEN dept, the process makes him feel really unpleasant.

    I was unaware of this process. He handed me the pencil and the sharpener on day one and asked me to sharpen it. I told him I wasn't his slave. He threw a tantrum. I told him to work with a blunt pencil but made him aware that he would not get a star if his work was untidy.

    He thought about it for about ten seconds and then sharpened his pencil.

    He's eight.

    It's incredible to watch him whenever he is with members of the SEN dept - it's like watching a different child.
  18. Hi eha

    Thanks for your comments in post 32 - no, I didn't report it to management, I guess I probably should have, but it seemed like making a mountain out of a molehill - especially as I don't even teach this particular pupil. Sometimes I just get so tired doing the day-to-day stuff that it feels like being constantly worn down and 'extra' things like this hardly feel worth it, although I'm sure it probably would be, and also as a new teacher I wasn't sure of my ground within the structure of the school, although the comment obviously was not called for. If it ever happens again I will certainly do something about it.

    I read with interest Brettgirl's post about how pupils with ADHD/aspergers respond best in a highly controlled environment with clear rules - I shall bear that in mind when back in the classroom next week.
  19. mrs-piggy

    what discipline techniques have you tried so far ?
  20. I have tried things like giving very clear instructions and asking questions to make sure everyone understands, often asking the particular pupils I am concerned about, I use clear typesetting in my worksheets, I have a seating plan so that they know exactly where they are sitting in my class, I often re-emphasise classroom rules before activities, and I pretty much always go to each individual pupil when the activity starts to re-explain, or give guidance, etc. However, there are some pupils who just refuse to do anything - if I can get them to stay in their chairs for the lesson, that's an achievement! But it's not really, is it, because they haven't actually done anything - but I can't make them, can I? Or can I?!

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