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Teachers pay 'going backward'

Discussion in 'Education news' started by lanokia, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Looks like PRP is having the desired results... combined with Capability of course...


    Teachers’ salaries in England are now so low they risk making teaching an unattractive profession, warns an influential international report on education published today.

    In England, primary teachers earn 75 per cent of what similarly educated professionals can expect while secondary teachers are paid 82 per cent of the salary of a similarly educated worker, a report from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) reveals.

    Andreas Schleicher, director for education and skills at the OECD, said: “You can see England and Scotland going backwards in real terms, when you look at salary between 2005 and 2013.

    “In the case of Scotland and England, teachers have paid quite a price. You can see, between 2005 and 2008, everybody got better paid. Then came the financial crisis and until 2012 there has been a steep fall in the relative pay of teachers."

    The OECD’s Education at a Glance 2015 report finds that, on average across developed countries, primary teachers earn 78 per cent and secondary teachers are paid 80 per cent of the salary they could expect had they entered another profession.
  2. snowyhead

    snowyhead Lead commenter

    Our government will pass this off as a load of hogwash, whilst simultaneously pouring over the OECD PISA results to conjure up new and improved ways to blame teachers for England's slide down the charts.

    This part of the summary report caught my eye:

    Larger classes are correlated with less time spent on teaching and learning, and more time spent on keeping order in the classroom. One additional student added to an average size class is associated with 0.5 percentage-point decrease in time spent on teaching and learning activities.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
    drek, petenewton, cissy3 and 5 others like this.
  3. Mangleworzle

    Mangleworzle Star commenter

    That goes against the Sutton Trust "findings" that class size makes little or no difference within normal limits (i.e. above 18 I think).

    No mention of the additional marking and reporting burden that larger classes bring either, then again I wouldn't imagine the British madness in this regard affects most other sensible minded countries.
  4. darklord11

    darklord11 Occasional commenter

    Certainly looks like we teachers are doing our bit to help with the deficit.
    The government will continue to erode our conditions of service like they haven't already and then open the door to anyone to teach to meet the demand of the growing school population.
    They will have helped reduce teacher salaries and pensions then claim that because of the financial acumen the deficit has reduced to some extent, all at the cost of the education of the vast majority of children. The political class send their little darlings to private schools then onto Oxford or Cambridge, places gained through who they know and definitely not what they know.
  5. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    Of course it is - it has been for years.
  6. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    I've known some kids with a much bigger effect than that!
    cissy3, sabrinakat and Mangleworzle like this.
  7. sabrinakat

    sabrinakat Star commenter

    Not always - most of my friends at my college were ordinary folk, including me. Then again, my college wasn't the traditional stomping grounds for the so-called political 'elite' (an old one (17th century foundation)), but not so traditional...)

    agree though, one or two little darlings removed from large classes could be heavenly!
  8. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    What evidence do you have for the latter part of this statement?
  9. JaquesJaquesLiverot

    JaquesJaquesLiverot Established commenter

    What does that mean, though? I mean no disrespect to primary teachers when I say this, but what else can you do with a BEd? What would be "similar" to a BEd?

    We all know that degrees aren't really equivalent - someone with a degree in Fashion won't end up in the same sort of job, or earning the same sort of money as someone with a degree in Physics for example. This must be especially true of "vocational" degrees, like those in teaching or nursing.
  10. darklord11

    darklord11 Occasional commenter

    Considering that only 7% of children attend private schools but they make near on 50% of all undergraduates at Oxford and Cambridge. Having seen for myself amazing talented young individuals turned away because they somehow failed the interviews or some other lame excuse. If you have evidence that this is not the case please publish.
  11. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    A B.A or B.Sc?
  12. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    Many, many primary teachers do not have a BEd, but a BA / BSc plus PGCE.
  13. Spiritwalkerness

    Spiritwalkerness Star commenter

    Alexander McQueen and John Galliano didn't do too badly with theirs :)
    sabrinakat and drek like this.
  14. drek

    drek Star commenter

    It is true teacher pensions and pay are a joke in terms of what we have to put up with.
    Idiots doing 'learning walks'. Can an idiot learn anything by walking around gazing at others? Really?
    Idiots using data to tell us that data is not God, but then use fake data to show us 'evidence' of this, and to 'inform' us of their 'special new' way to use data. Added on to the useless ways they just dissed.
    Idiots telling us to teach maths and science by getting the students to sing and chant. May link to shortage in these subjects?
    Idiots telling us observations help us to improve ourselves which we all dutifully repeat, even though our experiences of it actually prove it could become worse.
    And we have to put up with paycuts while idiots get millions from the government to preach at us at CPD sessions peddling their wares, leaving teaching and learning in a mess, wherever they go!

    Oh but they have plenty of 'data' to prove they are successful at making teachers work 'better' for less pay and more hours. Why would any government not believe that bs?
  15. drek

    drek Star commenter

    @spirit Yes so do footballers, pop stars simon cowells. Maybe we should stop teaching students anything except how to kick some balls
  16. drek

    drek Star commenter

    Because educated qualified teachers sure as hell can't
  17. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Lead commenter

    There is a fair amount of evidence that state school students underperform at interview. It's beyond doubt that one of the skills developed well by private education is confidence and a certain self-assurance, plus a feeling of deserving to be at an elite university. If you go into a university interview with the expectation that you will get a place you will tend to do better. I say this as someone who got an offer from Cambridge as a state school and FE college student (and then failed the STEP, but that's another matter). It remains a vexed question as to how Oxbridge can assess potential in state school students who won't necessarily perform as well as carefully coached private school counterparts in interviews or entrance exams. I was fortunate that my maths lecturer supported me with the STEP but I can imagine that it's much easier if the school/college has a clutch of students taking it each year who can feed off and support each other.
  18. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    The state school (selective) that I worked in got a fair number of students into Oxbridge. We encouraged students to apply and offered interview practice and help with entrance tests where needed. STEP students went to a nearby school for after school lessons, and another couple of teachers and I offered help with them. Even so, we did not have the resources to give the level of support that private schools could offer. And I doubt if many comprehensive schools who have to be more concerned about getting A* to C at GCSE could give what we could. Some of them may not offer the same encouragement to apply, especially if their staff already believe that the system is strongly biased against them.

    In addition, on average, private schools achieve better results than state schools, parlty because parents tend to be well educated and successful. Children of such people are already likely to be more confident. BillyBobJoe's comments above are spot on - how can universities assess potential?

    I have also sometrimes been amazed by students who didn't make it into Oxbridge, but also by some students who did! Anything that relies on how somebody performs on a specific occasion is going to produce wrong results because of somebody doing better or worse than usual on the day.
  19. JaquesJaquesLiverot

    JaquesJaquesLiverot Established commenter

    There might be one or two, but not "many, many" - I know that the number of primary PGCE places is extremely limited. Have you got any figures?
  20. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    No, I don't - just 34 years of teaching experience mainly in primary. Most schools have many more than 'one or two' teachers with PGCE - often 50%. I have no idea how many primary PGCE places are available now, but in the 70s/80s there were many providers. And on the 'Prospects' website (http://www.prospects.ac.uk/pgces.htm), the information states:

    'Different types of PGCEs include:
    • early years;
    • primary, with or without a specialism such as maths or a language;
    • secondary;
    • further/adult education with Qualified Teacher Learning and Skills (QTLS).'

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