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Tayyip Erdogan

Discussion in 'Personal' started by lanokia, Apr 4, 2016.

  1. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    Me, I'm struck by how this event, which is what used to be called a 'border skirmish', is being so over-reported. You read these dramatic headlines and then, buried in the middle of the story it says something like 'Dozens of fighters from the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) and pro-Turkish factions have been killed. The first death of a Turkish soldier was confirmed by Turkey's military'.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50020829
    Yeah, that sucks for them but its not exactly the Battle of Stalingrad either.
    Which is a good thing, if you actually care about people's lives, but a bad thing if you just want to use this thing as a stick with which to beat Trump, The worse, the better as far as those folks are concerned. Fact is, Trump made the only choice he could make. Obama, Clinton, JFK, FDR, Abraham Lincoln or anyone else would have made the same call, for the same reasons.
     
  2. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    It's not a border skirmish. It's the ethnic cleansing of Kurds from the Turkish border area. But given your politics, it's not entirely surprising that you would attempt to downplay ethnic cleansing as 'a a border skirmish'.
     
    hplovegame48 likes this.
  3. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    Oooohhh...that's me scolded. What I said was that, as such things go in the ME, this was not as bad as its being reported, that it was good that things aren't worse than they are and that the story was being over-reported to make Trump look bad. I said that stuff because I think its true. Skip the labelling and tell me I'm wrong.
    Love how you couldn't just disagree without personalizing it. But given your politics it's not entirely surprising...
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  4. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    You're wrong
     
  5. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    Because why?
     
  6. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    I was thinking about the sentiments expressed here... and I fully understand them. I share them... if I was American I'd be sick of US involvement abroad in fights such as these...

    But this justification... that the USA can't fight other people's wars... that 'eternal war' isn't what the American people want... I just recall that Trump just deployed roughly 2000 troops to defend Saudi oil fields.

    And in my world view... the Kurds have been better allies to the USA than the Saudi's ever have.
     
    anotherauntsally and chelsea2 like this.
  7. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    As to this being a 'border skirmish'. If French armed forces landed and occupied UK territory 10 miles in land to establish a 'secure region'.... would you call that a 'border skirmish'?
     
    anotherauntsally, chelsea2 and JL48 like this.
  8. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

     
  9. burajda

    burajda Star commenter

    Mr Trump has shown his allies in the region that they cant rely on the USA and have to stand on their own two feet miltarily. But they may still get some platitudes at the UN. That must be a big concern for the two key US allies, Saudi and Israel. Its emboldening for Iran and Russia that no US response happened once the news agenda moved on after the attacks on Saudi and the tankers in the gulf.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  10. burajda

    burajda Star commenter

    Means the Turks have no legitimacy at all in criticising Israels right to defend itself from terrorists by remaining in the West Bank. Turkey says it is only occupying a neighbouring territory to fight Kurdish terrorists, not ordinary Kurds.
     
  11. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    Yes, because that's what it would be. Limited objectives. Small amount of territory involved. Few casualties (fingers crossed). And again, from the Turk point of view, it makes perfect sense to create a buffer zone so the Kurds, whom you regard (not without some justification) as terrorists, to run ops into your country. I'm not endorsing this, I'm not supporting this, I'm only saying it isn't exactly WWIII, which is how it's being reported. Even if it does feel like WWII for those directly affected, who, lucky for us, aren't any of us.
     
  12. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    I feel like the Buddha of Unpopular Opinions around here.
    But okay, here goes. This is hard to write, so kindly indulge me.

    I'm 64 now. With luck, I might make it to 65. And there has not been one day in my life when my own government has not been telling me that I have to be worried about or ready to fight somebody I've never met who hasn't done anything bad to me. Not one day when my country has been at peace. I spent my young years waiting; first to get nuked by the Russkis and then waiting to find out if my government was going to ship my young ass 7000 miles from home to defend South Vietnam. Because it really, really mattered whether some peasant driving a water buffalo across a rice paddy in the middle of nowhere lived under a tyranny that was friends with Russia or a tyranny that was friends with America.

    Well, in the end they didn't send me. I was lucky. They sent lots of my friends, though. They sent my friend's brother and he came back...changed. Sat alone in his room playing 'White Bird' by It's A Beautiful Day over and over and over until the beautiful day when he shot himself.


    But even after that I still bought it. We were all good. They were all bad. Our leaders meant well and knew what they were going. Except it turns out we aren't, they aren't and they sure as hell didn't. American foreign policy post 1945 has been nothing but a succession of avoidable, bloody, stupid disasters. When did we last win? When did we last fight for something that was worth fighting for? It hurts my heart to say it but every American life lost in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq or wherever was a life wasted. Their pain, their effort, their sacrifice was for NOTHING. They suffered and died for NOTHING. It was all a big scam. They believed and they trusted and they, like the rest of us, were lied to and abused and betrayed and it needs to stop.

    There was a piece in today's Telegraph by their foreign policy guy who says that America stepping away from being the world's policeman presents an opportunity for the UK to take over that role. Good luck with that. Have fun wasting the lives of your wonderful young people, have fun with the distortion of government created by the legislative branch ceding its war making powers to the executive, have fun with all the money you'll waste and all the abuse you'll endure.

    I'm not a pacifist, I believe some things are worth the effort. America is worth fighting for. Afghanistan isn't. Nor is Iraq. Or Saudi Arabia. Or Israel. Or imaginary Kurdistan. Yes, the Kurds have been good allies and we're letting them down. Yes, the Saudis suck. Yes, the Turks aren't very nice. But so what? The world is full of angry, violent people and countries. Always has been. Can we fix them? Can we control them? No, we can't. And if we stop trying to it will be better for us and, ultimately, better for them too.

    It all needs to stop. Yes, that upsets a lot of career military who need battle stars to gain promotion, a lot of weapons makers who need to make money, a lot of neocon policy advisers who need to feel important, a lot of our "allies" who expect us to fight their wars for them, but **** them.**** those ******** forever. I hate them and I'm not on their side. I'm on the side of my friend's brother, alone and in despair, with a pistol in his mouth,because of what those people did to him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
    --Badger-- and lanokia like this.
  13. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    and no one who knows the history of the conflict - let alone their continued denial of the Armenian genocide - is going to believe a single word they say.
     
  14. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Video purporting to be on a mass attempted ISIS breakout from the Al-Hol prison camp ...

    upload_2019-10-13_18-18-30.png

    https://twitter.com/BasedPoland/status/1183391002985451522

    I read reports earlier today of Turkey targeting ISIS holding facilities to allow the inmates to escape.... can't confirm how true that is though [as I'm just a guy reading twitter/reddit - although they carry more 'news' than the BBC]
     
  15. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

  16. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Aye... I get all of what you wrote... I really do...

    And I certainly don't expect the USA to act as the world's policeman. No nation should. That should have been the UN's role but it failed at that in the 1990s in Rwanda and at Srebrenica. But the world does need a dominant force to safeguard trade routes. Especially in a globalised era like ours. Does it have to be the USA? No... but there is no other contender... and certainly no contender favourable to UK/European interests. China? Maybe but they won't act for us... the EU? They can't even stop inflatables crossing the Aegean.

    I just think the USA should have remained until the threat of a Turkish attack had been lifted. I'm reading reports of the Turks shelling US positions... and that the Turks know they are doing it and don't care...
     
  17. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

  18. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    [​IMG]
     
    nomad likes this.
  19. primarycat

    primarycat Star commenter

    That's a huge difference.
     
  20. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Russia doesn't bother imprisoning their journalists. There are cheaper and more permanent methods . . .
     

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