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Tayyip Erdogan

Discussion in 'Personal' started by lanokia, Apr 4, 2016.

  1. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Worrying developments.

    Throwing new armaments and explosions into a pre-existing warzone is dangerous and will only further destabilise the region.

    And bearing in mind the Turkish military's reputation in regards to the Kurds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuşkonar_massacre

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardin_engagement_ceremony_massacre

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roboski_airstrike

    Now my understanding... as it presently stands based on what I've managed to read in my rather busy working life ... [so if people know better please link me to informative content] ... Trump was basically told that Turkey was doing this. Erdogan didn't consult, he just said his country was going to occupy a 10km strip of the whole Syrian border. Trump could have kept US forces in the way of that advance but it would have risked US lives and possibly placed them in a position where they had to engage Turkey militarily in self-defence. As the purpose of those troops being there was completed [the defeat of ISIS], Trump saw it as wise to strategically withdraw.

    I don't like that this was necessary. I wish there was a way of reining in Erdogan and stopping his silly little foreign adventure. But I don't see how the USA could actually have intervened in a peaceful effective fashion.

    It's a tough one. I will happily berate Obama/Cameron for failing the people of Libya in 2011 by not staying behind and helping them build an effective, functioning nation. But if the USA remains in Kurdish Syria to help build a safe, effective, functioning region... that'd only place them in opposition to Turkey.

    It's nearly impossible to see the 'good' outcome.*


    * ideally the 'good' outcome would involve a time machine and the creation of a Kurdish state out of Iraq, Syria and Turkey back in 1920. But I'm not Doc Brown.
     
    artboyusa likes this.
  2. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    More blowback from the Iraq War.

    They stayed behind in Iraq and that worked well. See above.
     
  3. EBC

    EBC Occasional commenter

    How can Invasion of another country still happen in 2019....!
     
  4. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Well it's only 16 years since we invaded Iraq.

    And Turkey will claim this is a "police action" to support refugees. Not saying I believe that but it's what they'll claim.
     
  5. blue451

    blue451 Lead commenter

    The only winners are the arms manufacturers.

    PS and the constructors brought in later to help with 'reconstruction'.



    The locals never win.
     
  6. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    This is no surprise:

    On Wednesday, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said that Turkey must immediately end its offensive in northern Syria.

    Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has pledged to "open doors" for Syrian Refugees to Europe if he said EU sees a Turkish military operation in northeast Syria as an occupation.

    “We will open the gates and send 3.6 million refugees your way," Erdogan said during a speech to lawmakers from his AK Party on Thursday.
    https://sputniknews.com/world/201910101077008536-erdogan-warns-hell-open-doors-for-syrian-refugees-to-europe-if-eu-deems-turkish-op-an-occupation/?
     
  7. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    In an ideal response you'd see Europe deploy armies along the Bulgarian and Greek borders plus an increased naval presence in the Aegean. But that won't happen.

    So we'll make a lot of noise and Turkey won't listen.

    Minimum, we should be doing sanctions.
     
  8. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter


    Maybe we should support the creation of a European Army then... ;)
     
  9. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-49998035

    Tens of thousands of new refugees created... all for Tiny Tayyib to have his foreign military adventure. All talks with Turkey need to be suspended/cancelled. Sanctions need to be applied. And if he tries to ''unleash the refugees'' on Europe then all aid provided to Turkey needs to be cut off straight away and their foreign assets frozen like we did Iran.
     
  10. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Sorry Art... meant to be reply and then work got hectic and kept meaning to come back...

    As I said later on the thread, the USA was probably presented with little choice... which demonstrates what a poor ally Turkey is. No, the USA shouldn't have had a military confrontation. But Turkey needed to be told to climb down from their silly and fruitless posturing [and maybe they were behind the scenes, but unfortunately Western influence in Ankara seems to be at an all-time low]
     
    artboyusa likes this.
  11. Nanook_rubs_it

    Nanook_rubs_it Star commenter

    The plot thickens...not only is Trump Putin’s puppet, it would seem that Erdogan pulls one or two strings as well:

    Trump Urged Top Aide to Help Giuliani Client Facing DOJ Charges

    Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to help persuade the Justice Department to drop a criminal case against an Iranian-Turkish gold trader who was a client of Rudy Giuliani, according to three people familiar with the 2017 meeting in the Oval Office.

    Tillerson refused, arguing it would constitute interference in an ongoing investigation of the trader, Reza Zarrab, according to the people. They said other participants in the Oval Office were shocked by the request.


    The episode is also likely to fuel long-standing concerns from some of Trump’s critics about his policies toward Turkey and his relationship with its authoritarian president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Zarrab’s release was a high priority for Erdogan until the gold trader agreed to cooperate with prosecutors in New York.


    www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-10-09/trump-urged-top-aide-to-help-giuliani-client-facing-doj-charges
     
  12. blue451

    blue451 Lead commenter

    Perhaps this is a cunning plan to reawaken the fears of 2 million refugees from Turkey trying get to britain. Trump doing a favour for Johnson pre-GE.
     
  13. artboyusa

    artboyusa Star commenter

    Yep. I'm mostly pro-Kurd (except the PKK) and lukewarm about Turkey but Turkey is doing what makes sense to them and there's not much anyone can do about it. What if Trump did tell Erdogan to climb down? Erdogan could just say "Make me" and then turn off the lights and the water at Incirlik, surround the place with troops and missiles, ground all flights and dare us to do something about it. And if we did do something, we split NATO and force all the member states to choose sides and then that's NATO gone.
     
  14. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

  15. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    I agree that Turkey is doing what makes sense. They've got close to 4 million refugees in their country. We've failed to live up to our promises to them.

    But doesn't mean I like what is happening. Might be able to see their view point but I don't agree with it. After all, Poland hosts 500,000 Ukrainian refugees... not sure that'd legitimise Poland invading Ukraine. [I know you didn't argue this... just my way, I think of an alternative similar scenario and wonder if it'd still fly]
     
  16. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    Of course, Erdogan didn't do so well in the last lot of elections, did he? Especially in the urban areas.

    And winning a conflict often boosts a leader's popularity.....
     
    JL48 likes this.
  17. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Oh you cynic you...

    :)
     
    JL48 and chelsea2 like this.
  18. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    What were those promises (not being critical but curious)? I know there were deals between the EU and Turkey re refugees, which is partly why the flow of refugees to Greece has slowed.
     
  19. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    My understanding is that the EU monies promised have been slow to non-existent.

    Most of the money was used to fund the Turkish border fence... basically the EU's southern border wall. Ironically.
     
  20. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/10/kurds-syrian-democratic-forces-us-donald-trump/

    upload_2019-10-11_20-19-5.png


    On Dec. 20, 2018, the day after U.S. President Donald Trump abruptly announced via Twitter that the United States would withdraw all U.S. forces from Syria, a group of U.S. soldiers set out on a routine patrol through Manbij, a Kurdish-held town in northern Syria.

    A member of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) approached the American troops, according to a U.S. Army officer on patrol that day, who spoke to Foreign Policy on the condition of anonymity. The man broke down in tears, thanking the U.S. service members for their support.

    “He took off his unit patch and gave it to me. It was the most emotional moment I’ve ever experienced,” said the officer, who fought alongside the SDF in the yearslong battle to defeat the Islamic State and is one of many retired and current service members who say they are devastated by Trump’s latest decision to withdraw troops from the border, paving the way for Turkey to launch a major attack on northeastern Syria.

    Seeing the group’s reaction to Trump’s tweet on the front lines in Manbij “was when I truly found out that the SDF were probably some of the most noble people I’d ever met.”

    In the end, Trump partially reversed his pledge, drawing down U.S. presence in Syria by roughly half in the months since the tweet. But nearly one year later, the United States has once again disappointed its Syrian allies. The SDF, the militia largely responsible for liberating Syria from the Islamic State, is now under a brutal assault by Turkish forces, after Trump appeared to give the green light for Ankara to move into northeastern Syria. The total number of fighters and civilians killed in the operation so far was not clear as of Wednesday night, but a conflict monitoring group said more than 60,000 civilians had been displaced.

    Current and retired U.S. military officers interviewed by Foreign Policy about their direct experience with the SDF, who spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to discuss sensitive operations, described a group of passionate, fearless fighters, both male and female, who share American values and remain loyal partners even after repeated disappointments. The people interviewed held up the Kurdish fighters as a model of a successful partnership in a tumultuous region, with one retired military officer saying the group was one of the few indigenous units the United States has worked with since 9/11 that have earned its trust.

    “Both their competence in battle and their commitment to the mission have been proven over and over,” the retired officer said.

    All the people interviewed unanimously said they were devastated by the news that the United States is standing aside to let the Turks massacre the Kurdish troops, and more than one expressed a deep sense of shame.

    “I feel physically ill with worry and concern and deeply ashamed that my own country would permit this fate to befall our close allies who did all our fighting for us, when we had the power to prevent it,” said a U.S. Marine who served in Syria in 2017-2018.

    Ankara considers the SDF an offshoot of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which has waged a three-decade insurgency in Turkey. Both the United States and Turkey have labeled the PKK a terrorist group. But the retired and current U.S. military officers who spoke with Foreign Policy pushed back on Turkey’s characterization of the SDF as a terrorist threat.

    “It is unacceptable to turn our back on them to a tyrant like [Turkish President Recep Tayyip] Erdogan, who views all Kurds as terrorists,” the retired officer said. “There will be a whole generation of U.S. military that will never forget this betrayal nor stop apologizing for it.”
     
    artboyusa and JL48 like this.

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