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Tax cedits and all that

Discussion in 'Personal' started by yfel_endwerce, Oct 26, 2015.

  1. yfel_endwerce

    yfel_endwerce Established commenter

    The Lords may (or may not) scupper or delay the legislation on Tax Credits (and no, in spite of the claims, this would not be "unconstitutional" just rare)
    That aside I have trouble with the government's claims about why it it needs to be done at this time and in this way.
    IF they truly want to move people from a low wage/benefit supported/high tax system then surely the way to do it is to FIRST ensure that the low wages and poor contract systems that allow working people to be paid so little that they need Tax Credits (and millions do) just to survive are fixed and then the tax credit system would largely redundant.

    At which point I would happily support its removal or reduction.

    As it is, I see it as poorer people being targeted simply because they can be in order to reduce costs.
    ScotSEN likes this.
  2. RedQuilt

    RedQuilt Star commenter

    Is it going to reduce costs by as much as they say though? Watching Nicky Morgan on the Andrew Marriage show yesterday and hearing someone else on the news this morning (can't remember who) part of their defense for the cuts was that people would get 30 hours pw of free childcare. So, if I'm getting this right, people will have money taken from one pot of money but paid an additional about from another pot. How does that add up then?
  3. yfel_endwerce

    yfel_endwerce Established commenter

    it doesn't
  4. RedQuilt

    RedQuilt Star commenter

    I didn't think so! So it's another bonkers idea that hasn't been thought through properly then. It ought to be a surprise but...
  5. xena-warrior

    xena-warrior Star commenter

    It really riles me that they've picked this particular benefit to cut. You have to work to get it., ***. How is making it uneconomic for families to work going to cut the eventual welfare bill?
    And childcare's not free, Nicky. Someone's paying for it. Does it come out of the welfare budget, perchance?
    If the Lords overturn this, I'll have a one-year moratorium on wishing to see them dismantled.
    kibosh, ilovesooty, ScotSEN and 4 others like this.
  6. BobbyPhilips

    BobbyPhilips Established commenter

    If you have 3 children and childcare costs, tax credits may be claimed with a household income of up to £65,000 p.a.
  7. monicabilongame

    monicabilongame Star commenter

    I don't think anyone with a household income of anything like £65k pa needs tax credits. Try living in the South East, renting, on £19k pa!
    midnight_angel likes this.
  8. felltogroundinberkeleysquare

    felltogroundinberkeleysquare Established commenter

    The difficult thing here is the economics: we would all like to have Utopian lives, however, it is not the way the world works. I am not sure tax credits to procreate more and more children into poverty paid for by someone else is the answer. I do think paying fair pay for work is better. The enchantment of "rights" has been and gone since the 60's to now, rising and falling as all economies do. Unfortunately, people have to make their beds and live with them, without the idea that there is a welfare state to plump them up. It certainly isn't now.

    So what do you do? Adapt or be dammned?
  9. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    The basic problem with the whole austerity drive is that the current bunch of bozos know nothing of basic economics. The Treasury which provides most advice is well renowned for its prehistoric attitude to the nation's finances. This was one of the biggest problems that afflicted nationalised industries.

    You don't need to balance the books when you are talking about nation's wealth because you can factor in growth which offsets that. Of course, if you overblow the spending bit then you do cause a problem but this government's idea of a balance year on year and not taking account of the difference between investment and day to day spending is based on economic ignorance.

    That the tax credit bill has risen from £1bn to £30bn over the years is an issue but it has happened to a large degree because of the dearth of growth in productivity and the increase in profits taken by companies and shareholders.

    That an adjustment needs to be made is obvious but it is how and how fast that is the debate. This bunch of bozos are simply taking the fastest, most destructive route.
    grumpydogwoman likes this.
  10. BobbyPhilips

    BobbyPhilips Established commenter

    Can you substantiate that the rise in tax credits is caused by shareholder dividends?
  11. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    “George Osborne said today that the country cannot afford such a high working age benefits bill. He is right - poverty is a risk, waste and cost we cannot afford.

    “But the plan to freeze welfare for two further years will make things worse for our economy, with more people living below the poverty line leading to lower tax revenues and the wasted potential of millions

    “The economy is beginning to recover, but for people on low incomes, the forecasts are heading in the wrong direction. Without concerted action, millions of people are going to find it harder to meet their basic needs and have already borne a sizeable burden of deficit reduction in this parliament.

    “Only by tackling the underlying causes of poverty and the high benefits bill – such as low pay and expensive housing – we will see the welfare spend fall.

    “George Osborne talked about the importance of choice - for many families today, their choices just got a whole lot tougher.”


    So whatcha gonna do about that then, George? I think I know what the response of some employers will be to pay rises - shed staff.
    cally1980 and ScotSEN like this.
  12. BobbyPhilips

    BobbyPhilips Established commenter

    What do you think he should do about that?
  13. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    Basic arithmetic. Work it out.
  14. Geoff Thomas

    Geoff Thomas Star commenter

    The government is trying to make out that this is a constitutional issue (not that we have one).

    That's because they know they have lost the argument.
    RedQuilt likes this.
  15. BobbyPhilips

    BobbyPhilips Established commenter

    I understand now, You just made it up. You got me there , I thought there might be some basis in reality.
  16. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    No I didn't it make it up,it really is basic arithmetic.

    In any case, I didn't say that it was only caused by shareholders but by a range of factors including the increase in dividends.
  17. felltogroundinberkeleysquare

    felltogroundinberkeleysquare Established commenter

    The growth of the economy? To offset rises in welfare costs? Have you not noticed interest rates at the moment and the B of E's policy on that? There is no growth. We have arrived at politicians paying those who will vote the most for turkeys.
  18. yfel_endwerce

    yfel_endwerce Established commenter

    Well it wasn't killed off just amended for further study .
    The govt, if sensible, will settle its ruffled feathers and do some serious re-thinking.
    And the price of bacon will rise significantly ;):D
  19. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    Current growth is 2.6% down from 2.8% last year with forecast to decline to 2.2% in 2017.
  20. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    People who work need "benefits" to have enough just to keep their heads above water

    The financial system effectively crashed several years ago and hasn't recovered.

    Several major companies are effectively not paying tax

    If interest rates rise, we'll be in a mess again

    Young people can't even afford houses these days

    Wages hardly cover outgoings in many parts of UK - if they do at all

    Things are not working.

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