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So what now for Brexit?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by dumpty, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Star commenter

    Turkey is in a Customs Union with the EU, it isn't in the EU Customs Union however.
  2. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

  3. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    I don't think May's delaying tactics are the main - or even sole - reason why we look like we're heading towards no deal.

    Her stubbornness has a large part to do with it.
    And her inability to see the wood for the trees.
    To mix my metaphors, she has dug herself into a large hole, and can no longer see the world outside of that hole. I wonder if she has looked at the growing call for a second referendum, or considered halting the process in order to get the country to reconsider? Or is she so blinkered that she can no longer see another way?
    monicabilongame and irs1054 like this.
  4. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    Except that "leave the EU" is an inadequate phrase. What does it mean? You may think you know what it means but it wasn't explicitly defined in any official documentation. It certainly wasn't defined on the ballot paper.

    So the argument that you don't know what leave means is a perfectly valid one. It has become even more so since it has become apparent that various brexit-nutters simply don't care what happens to the economy, what happens to jobs or anything else for that matter.

    We have a deal with the EU, job done. Except everyone is complaining that the deal is not what we meant by "leave".
    This all begs the question what does "leave" mean, does it mean anything?.
    sodalime likes this.
  5. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    I think both the EU and May produced this agreement in good faith, in the case of May, I believe that she thinks it is delivering on the result of the referendum. I may very well be wrong on this but that is what I believe.

    Having produced this deal, I think that May has nailed her colours very firmly to the mast and has decided this is it.

    The problem with May seems to be that she is not a very good people person and this has shown. She has not reached out to produce any sort of consensus across the house which might have changed the arithmetic. She lost her majority in the house with the needless election which she blamed on the opposition parties in spite of the obvious fact she had the required majority.

    And now there is no where to go. As has been made clear in the last couple of days,the deal is not going to be negotiated. The brexiteers and Labour are living in fantasy land. She remains the closest thing to an adult in the room when it comes to Parliament.

    As I have said, logically there are only two options, if it comes to a referendum, May's deal or remain. But I have also said that logic has taken an extended vacation when it comes to the current situation in Parliament.
  6. SirPurrAlot

    SirPurrAlot Established commenter

    It means not being one of the current 28 members of the EU.

    It really isn't hard to understand, you know.
    border_walker and dumpty like this.
  7. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    What May hopes to achieve and what is outlined in the political declaration is indeed a decent leave hope. But it is not legally binding.

    What May has agreed to and is legally binding is staying under EU jurisdiction if the above hope does not materialise - and having part of the UK in the SM, most of it not.

    So ironically a remain at core parliament does not like the deal because it cannot trust the EU to ensure the backstop does not come into play - and stay forever.

    It is quite a statement of cynicism and distrust towards the EU but hey ho, there you go.
  8. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    You did- however no matter what name it is under, it is a customs union of sorts.

    No- what I want is full EU membership, with a seat at the table when laws are being drafted and an international support network helping to bring up countries which suffered at the hands of history.

    Short of that- I would rather us have a hard Brexit and see the idiots who voted for it step up and hand their notices in when the job cuts come. One of my colleagues didn't like that idea... Seems that he's not up for going out as an entrepreneur - but he's another one who reverted to getting foreigners out as he saw all his rational arguments fall by the wayside 2-3 years ago.

    And having seen how Davis performed- should we not put him in pillories on Parliament Square rather than give him airplay when it comes to how desperate the EU will be to agree our terms?

    No- if we vote to leave and say how then fine, that would be clear. Even better if we have the understanding that should it go horribly wrong then the areas backing Brexit will bear the brunt of the NHS & other spending cuts.
    As it is the Ashcroft data and the Former head of Leave both show that the "promise" to send the inflated sum to the NHS rather than Brussels swung the vote. On top of that we had the various xenophobes and little Inglanders topped up with a few who really believed that leaving the EU would mean less Red Tape (not having to replicate it in-house) and wonderful trade deals - including with the EU.

    May's deal fits the bill - it means we leave the EU- so you should be overjoyed, but somehow you are not. Why is it that you aren't asking for a "second" referendum so that you can make clear that you don't like May's deal and want a hard Brexit?

    The GE was a 2 horse race- with some people frightened that Labour would cancel Brexit and others frightened of how hard May's version of it might be.
    The next could be a re-run in some respects- hence my not making clear predictions earlier.
  9. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    Who seem rather confused. May's deal delivers exactly what people voted for- so why are so many people complaining about it?
  10. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    Which, if it is all so simple, then begs the question as to why there is so much confusion over what type of brexit we should have. And I am not just talking about me.

    But the backstop was always going to be the issue. And what is a backstop if it can be dispensed with at will?
    EmanuelShadrack likes this.
  11. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    I don't think that's accurate either- I think had the result been that way - the Government would be doing a lot of soul searching and having a lot of EU talks about how to appease the Leave camp.

    I'm with Irs, It's not been easy to get to this point- and having the clowns running the show for the first year didn't help.

    Take note how many of them look to be in positions where their livelihoods wont be immediately affected.
    There's a lot of them on pensions (who think they'll be safe) quite a few in Public Sector jobs (who think they'll be safe) small market traders (who think they'll be safe) - I suspect if they were to talk to people leaving factories and offices there would be an absence of "brexit-nutters"

    _ i.e. may's deal- any chance you could tell us why so many "brexit-nutters" aren't supporting it?

    All we need to do is invent from scratch the means to monitor what crosses the soft border and the Backstop won't be needed. How are you with electronics & IT?
  12. nomad

    nomad Star commenter

    Britons will have to pay €7 (£6.30) every three years to travel to EU countries, as a consequence of Brexit.

    The European Commission has confirmed that while UK travellers will not need a visa, they will need to apply for and buy another document.

    It is called an ETIAS (European Travel Information and Authorization System) and although not launched yet, is expected to come into force in 2021.

    The travel requirement is not just for the UK but for many non-EU countries.
  13. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    And full of other issues which even The Guardian struggles to sell. (Guardian quoted in post above)

    So you still refuse to accept a democratic decision went against you? I am sure you made those arguments in the debate and I my counter arguments - the vote came back to leave.

    Well let's see if you are right. No-one knows how it will develop.

    I would gladly see Davies move aside and Jacob Rees Mogg become the man :D

    Ye Gods, how many questions do you want on the ballot?

    I see you use inverted commas and yes indeed, what was false about we could direct money saved in membership fees to the NHS? The principle of money saved being able to be used on local projects and people is sound.

    May's hopeful deal does but the legally binding one does not. I would prefer a FTA with the EU but if it has to be WTO, that is not something I fear.

    Agree. I do think Labour need Brexit done with to have a chance of winning , though. Corbyn seems more scared of an election right now than anything - he even leaves question time as soon as he can.
  14. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Agree. But why May would agree (twice now, she tried it many months ago) to a backstop that totally shafts the party holding up her government, I do not get.
  15. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    In the first place, exactly who does this agreement shaft?

    In the second, I don't think she had much option. The EU knows about duty unlike some of our own MPs.
    monicabilongame likes this.
  16. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    You aren't helping your argument.

    This is the macho nonsense I'm talking about. If you aren't hugely concerned about having to go to WTO rules, you haven't looked at the implications of that even remotely closely. Or at all. Look at who supports it - Rees Mogg, Redwood and that idiot who runs Wetherspoons and keeps saying wholly incorrect things about what No Deal would mean. Oh and people in the street doing vox pops who probably don't know what day it is but want to look uncompromising in the face of Johnny Foreigner.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  17. SirPurrAlot

    SirPurrAlot Established commenter

    There is no confusion about leaving. Any confusion is about what our relationship should be with the EU after leaving - like that of Canada, like that of Norway, or like that of the proposed deal.
    monicabilongame likes this.
  18. SirPurrAlot

    SirPurrAlot Established commenter

    Would you like to say why, or do you just issue random comments without rhyme or reason?
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  19. SirPurrAlot

    SirPurrAlot Established commenter

    Because lack of control over the backstop could mean that we effectively don't leave the EU.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  20. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    The DUP. They made it and make it very clear their whole soul is about keeping NI in the UK.

    They cannot accept NI being treated differently and the backstop does that. As the backstop is legally binding unlike the rest of the promises, it is impossible for the DUP to back it.

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