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So what now for Brexit?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by dumpty, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Just heard him on Marr and man, he is such a troll. He says no deal would be a catastrophe but then says he has never in 22 years voted against the whip (when asked if he would vote the gov down if headed for a no deal).

    Yeah, yeah Hammy boy....let's put pressure on those worried about no deal to make sure the Brexit backing leader is now pushed aside, or else you cannot be sure I will vote it all down.

    Pass the sick bucket!

    I do actually like him. He not only looks like Mr Burns from the Simpsons he is in so many ways the same type of cynical character.

    But at least he lets you know his stance, albeit in riddles.
  2. Geoff Thomas

    Geoff Thomas Star commenter

    Which should they have done? Led or supported the vote?
    mathsmutt and harsh-but-fair like this.
  3. harsh-but-fair

    harsh-but-fair Star commenter

  4. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Unclear....dithering....will U turn....unreliable.....one issue focus (power).

    Or simply put, you have no real idea what things will be like if he gains power. In essence, too risky and too much of a gamble.
  5. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    The two go together. You asked for the vote, you said you would implement it....so lead us out.

    You said you would, we said you should.
  6. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    Passing over the last 3 years of BREXIT/BRINO F-up, what might an independent observer think?
    Here is my starter:
    Business interests have taken control of the decisions. Politicians have tried to give us the idea of freedom of choice aka the referendum but we and the politicians are owned and have no choice unless it is their choice.

    What do they want?
    1. obedient workers
    2. people who are only just capable of running their machines and doing their paperwork
    3. people who will passively accept increasingly sh177y jobs on low pay, longer hours and reduced benefits
    4. to tell you what to believe and what not to believe
    5. to tell you what to buy and what not to buy
    What do they NOT want?
    1. an independent nation
    2. a well informed population
    3. a well educated population (unless you belong to their club)
    4. people who are capable of critical thinking
    5. the sick, the disabled, the elderly in particular those pensioners on decent pensions
  7. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    Except the referendum was advisory but you are trying to act as if it was obligatory. It wasn't and the key feature about something that is advisory is that you can accept the advice or not.

    So leadership could be accepting the advice of the electorate or coming clean and explaining why the advice cannot be accepted in spite of promises made. (but then what politician hasn't broken a promise?)
    mathsmutt likes this.
  8. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    The referendum was advisory, it was the government and parliament who made it obligatory. I tend to believe spending was it 9 million quid to tell me the decision would be implemented made it rather serious and that the result was serious - as did being told by our PM at the time this was a once in a lifetime vote.

    His actual words:

    “I am absolutely clear a referendum is a referendum, it’s a once in a generation, once in a lifetime opportunity and the result determines the outcome ... You can’t have neverendums, you have referendums.”

    The leadership tried its hardest to lead us to a remain vote. Although Cameron was referring to his belief leave were losing the vote, his words are as apt as ever.

    We are still just an amended backstop from an acceptable deal. I am not sure why you still maintain Brexit is an impossibility. Yes, our MPs can be a cynical bunch at times but would they really play such nasty games with us all for 3 years just to make it look like they tried to deliver something impossible?

    Having said that, let's see. If we get Raab or Boris in charge then they have both said amended backstop or we just leave.

    Only now will we see how possible that is.
    border_walker and lexus300 like this.
  9. Jude Fawley

    Jude Fawley Star commenter

    Why anyone gives any credence to the tory party right now is beyond me. They're on their knees and have no authority despite hanging onto government. When you add it all up they are a busted flush with no say or sway in what happens next re leaving the EU.

    Farage is the man who will take us out of the EU.

    Right now the tories are more insipid than Labour.

    It is only the ignorance and arrogance of the Westminster elite that keeps them waffling on. They really don't know what else to do with their days. They can't face reality.

    How on earth they thought they could just ignore us and do as they pleased without consequences is a mystery too far.

    Drain the swamp!
    fredhaise, border_walker and lexus300 like this.
  10. MrMedia

    MrMedia Star commenter

    I was reading some things this morning and they said the new leader of the Tory party would have to command a majority in the house. This means they would have to test this vote before they could become PM itself. However, if they are not careful they could end up tripping off for a GE pdq.
    Summer GE anyone? No, me neither.

    Saw Raab this morning. He simply did not sound one bit like a PM.

    "I would cut the civil service in size and then use half of the money for front line teachers and nurses and half of the money for future tax cuts."

    I think he is just making it up as he goes along.
    mathsmutt likes this.
  11. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Worry not, he is - albeit not as quickly as he and many of us thought. His party's polls alone played a massive part in May's downfall (not least the timing) and if he does well tonight in the count, he will also play a massive part in which leader and direction the Tories go.

    Sad how so many cannot give him credit for the incredible job he has done for the Brexit cause, whether you agree with him or not.
  12. Jude Fawley

    Jude Fawley Star commenter

    It's an indication of how comfortable in their arrogance the tories are that it takes outside political force to get them to change. They can't even see how ignorant they are. They take it as given that they are the decision makers. We will now destroy them politically and show them their vacuous ideals.

    We must never let them into power again. Neither should we let Labour in its present form get any foothold in our country's future.

    Drain the swamp!
  13. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Which brings me back to that canny old bean, Hammond.

    As he was inferring, Tories are not wanting to vote against their own party when push comes to shove, hence why quite a few remainers these days are having kittens over Brexit. (We all have whether leave or remain, the pendulum keeps swinging!)

    The idea Tories will bring down their own government and end their careers by doing so AND catapult Corbyn to power is while not a unicorn as lefties like to label, then at least a two-i-corn.

    Or in plain English, ain't gonna 'appen, mate.
    border_walker likes this.
  14. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    This is possibly the greatest thing Brexit has given us. It has awoken far more than comfortable for the two big parties to the fact MPs do not use the power we give them, they abuse it. That they feel they know best so just give us your votes then sod off.

    Problem is FPTP still gives them their arrogance cushion but yes, it is losing air slowly.
    border_walker likes this.
  15. Jude Fawley

    Jude Fawley Star commenter

    It'll go pop tonight and that's before we even have the results.
  16. burajda

    burajda Star commenter

    Its what British people have been voting for for many years through the democratic system we have. Less state ownership, fewer benefits and more standing on your own two feet, reduced worker/union representation, more market driven 'efficiency'. Its the anglo saxon market orientated economic model that we have chosen for decades. Perhaps we should have chosen to be more like Germany or the Nordic states than the USA.

    Are you looking forward to Nigels low tax, business deregulated, small state future?
    monicabilongame and Burndenpark like this.
  17. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    No they didn't. Under our current constitution it is all but impossible. Referendums are advisory and will remain so. I am sorry you were duped by this (along with many others), it was certainly not your fault, but duped you were.

    Actual meaningless words. I am not being rude or anything, these words have no meaning.

    They will not be able to amend the backstop, it's that simple. They do not, repeat, do not have any sort of mandate whatsoever to take this country out with no deal. For them to try to do so would be completely undemocratic. Having seen Raab on Marr this morning the only exit he should be making is in a white suit with lots of straps done up. He is delusional in the extreme.

    Cameron made a miscalculation of monumental proportions, the country does not need to compound that error.
  18. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    I said it was advisory. I was worried parliament would indeed find ways to weasel out of implementing it as they said they would, but they did accept the advice.

    Ergo it become obligatory we leave under the conditions of A.50. Parliament took the advice and cemented the decision at that point.

    No-one is or was duped by that. All we were duped by was a remainer (May) and a remainer (Robbins) consistently bowing to EU demands while saying they were indeed implementing the result.

    So by that token the message (350m) on the bus did was meaningless and without influence? You would be the first remainer I know to say that.

    You would not accept such words said by our PM (and repeated pretty much in the leaflet) did not influence people?

    I will agree how many I cannot know. But cherry picking words and promises of the campaign on some being more equal than others is a tad amusing, if not unexpected.

    Still, parliament did all of that and yet still triggered A.50.

    You cannot know this.

    Parliament triggered A.50 and by doing so made it law we leave deal or no deal once its period is over, which by mutual agreement is now 31.10.2019.

    A parliament that itself asked for advice and a government then formed on the back of a leave manifesto and - at the time at least - a PM saying 'no deal is better than a bad deal'. The HoC was also voted in with 80 odd percent of votes to the two parties - at the time at least - who said they would deliver Brexit.

    What other possible mandate can they need?

    I need to watch it all, only caught the last two minutes or so. I think he might do it as the smear campaign against Boris is starting in earnest, allowing Raab an overtake on the inside.

    He had no choice. Nige was winning EU elections and closing in on 13% of the popular vote here. Only FPTP was keeping UKIP from a coalition government with the Tories.

    When Cam said he would call a referendum, he won a majority in the HoC.
    border_walker likes this.
  19. dleaf12

    dleaf12 Lead commenter

    • I give Farage the credit for being a mendacious, self-serving hypocrite who for all his anti-EU BS made QUITE sure that he and his familiy had German passports prior to (the original) Brexit day.

    • I give him credit for finding and tapping into the very lowest of xenophobic instincts to be found in our population.

    • I give him credit for successfully presenting himself to be a "man of the People" despite his privileged banking/financial trader background.

    • I give him credit for keeping his trotters firmly in the EU gravy-train trough while not doing the job he was elected to do properly and doing all he can to bring the EU down.

    • I give him credit for channeling funds from arrogant businessmen trying to buy this country's future.

    If Brexit needs friends such as these to make its case then it is a pretty weak and feeble idea.
  20. lexus300

    lexus300 Star commenter

    Democratic INO.

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