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So what now for Brexit?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by dumpty, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    Pretending that they won't happen is not dealing "with all these points". Still, since you never seem to agree with any opinion but your own, let's leave it there.
  2. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Fair point.

    Surely though this was how they should have debated with themselves before agreeing to a referendum and promising to implement the result. Although again, here you infer they know better and I really am not sure that is true.

    We have all suffered under decisions of our elected reps and that is unlikely to change, leave or no leave.
  3. Geoff Thomas

    Geoff Thomas Star commenter

    Yes. They should implement the decision made by those who listened to Owen Paterson, and stay in the single market.
  4. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    It has been said time and time again that it will take between 6 and 9 months. Ample time for the businesses which have said that if there is no decision in the next few weeks they will move production abroad.
  5. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Star commenter

    It wasn't my intention to say they do know better, only they should know more than the average person in this country. There are too many career politicians though and like you say we suffer on some of their dubious decisions.
    (Actually this is the reason we need an unelected House of Lords - recognising this also needs some tweaking - to try and keep things balanced against knowledge and facts)
    irs1054 likes this.
  6. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    Leave was not defined at the time of the ballot but leaving the EU with a deal was always going to be something very similar to what we have with May's deal. Anything else was pure fantasy.

    This is a complete misunderstanding of the notions of independence and sovereignty. As with any agreement with other countries, it means giving up one type of sovereignty for another. Up until the referendum, when the UK spoke, in general, the rest of the World listened. We had great authority and influence both within the EU and without because we were considered a sensible reasonable voice. A very large part of that was due to our membership of the EU. The way the EU operates today is due, in very large part, to British influence.

    They are crying at the total mess. No one wants the UK to fail. This is self inflicted harm that is happening.

    Try looking at the stats just before the Great Depression. Remember brexit actually hasn't happened yet. We have economic forecasts which predict certain things and the brexiteers are in denial. And no the result of the referendum was not "to give it a go." People had no clear idea because it wasn't defined and they were fed fantasies by the brexiteers who never thought that the result would be leave.

    They are our representatives and are charged with making decisions on our behalf. We live in a Parliamentary democracy and that is what it means. Those decisions are not necessarily based upon the desires of the electorate, however expressed (promises are not binding). They are expected, by tradition going back to the dawn of the UK, to consider the interests of the nation when they choose a course of action. If, in their considered opinion, that means cancelling brexit, then that is what Parliament should do in discharging its democratic duty to the electorate. Going for brexit regardless of the consequences (just because we had a referendum) means, at best, they are only "representing" (the desire of) 37% of the electorate when their duty is to the interests and well-being of 100% of the electorate.

    The problem we have is that there is a stalemate in Parliament. It is incapable of making a decision and it is incapable of undoing the log jam. MPs are essentially in a state of denial of what is happening. In effect, our political system is collapsing in on itself into a state of chaos.

    If Parliament can't (or won't) decide, then it need to throw the question back to the people.
    ilovesooty and EmanuelShadrack like this.
  7. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    And where have I pretended that something will not happen? Again when you can't argue properly you resort to strawman arguments.

    It is not a question of opinion, it is a question of arguing on a proper basis. I will not accept poor arguments.
  8. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    Labour must be really enjoying this... What ever happens the Tories come out of it looking as bad as Labour did from the financial crash.
    Labour thanks to their monumental fence sitting- can claim to have had a solution- no matter what happens, since they haven't committed to anything other than - we'd negotiate a better deal.:rolleyes:

    And just what did people vote for?

    I wouldn't bet against them, but I can't see anyone winning an outright majority at the moment. The SNP might be resurgent in Scotland, and the Libdems might make a small come back in England- Will UKIP re-appear? Who knows?
    And for that matter who will be leading the Tories?

    Not exactly- but a lot of the things that got mentioned in passing by Remain have proved to be major points- at the time they were all discounted as Project Fear.

    If this goes really badly - no one is safe, apart from the Spivs who supported it from the start.
    A big enough hit to tax revenues could leave the basic state pension and NHS vulnerable.
    I have a feeling that a lot of people voted Brexit thinking that they had nothing to lose- without understanding what they were already getting.

    We haven't been since we voted for this madness.
  9. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    And so you'll be OK with the collapse of the peace process and the resurgence of violence, in Northern Ireland and probably in the rest of the UK. Deaths, injuries and destruction of property would be worth it, in your opinion?
  10. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    If 'remain' isn't on the ballot paper, wait for the huge campaign to write it in - if several million do, the referendum result will be invalid. 'Remain' might well actually win, even if not on the ballot paper...;)
    dumpty and irs1054 like this.
  11. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    From what Ive seen of many Brexiteers - they see immigration as the main problem and kicking out the foreigners as the solution to all our ills- so any deal that delivers that will make many of the xenophobic Brexiteers happy, until they realise we haven't sent anyone back home (give or take a few from Windrush), we are still accepting Asylum Seekers, and we are still taking in non-EU citizens at the same rate we currently do- or higher.
    Please note- just as people keep telling me the Ballot didn't offer anything along the lines of Send Johnny Foreigner packing- neither did it say leave the Customs Union- Anything other that Leave the EU is just imposing one person's reading onto that.

    To be fair- she's not really run the clock down- Davis was going to get a new deal over a cup of tea in the first few months- and what happened?

    Oh yes, the clown forgot to do his homework beforehand.

    Which is why a third referendum would be the best way forwards.
  12. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    This x3.
  13. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Star commenter

    Time to update this...​
    EmanuelShadrack likes this.
  14. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    How do you leave the EU if you stay in its CU? Are we free to strike own trade deals with others if we stay in the CU? Does it solve the NI border concern?

    We have not even started talks on THE deal. He may end up being right.


    But what if it comes up with the 'wrong' result - again???

    I cannot know of course but I think May will get some kind of fudged promise at the 11th hour which, with the gathering pressures of remainers to end it all through another referendum, with Labour trying to get a GE etc, will lead to her deal getting voted through.
  15. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    By saying that you have "dealt with" the seven reasons why a referendum cannot be pushed through in a "very short time" when you have done no such thing - you have simply ignored the problems.

    I won't ask you to address those seven problems because I know from experience that every time you find yourself unable to explain somethign, you either pretend that you have already done so, or you say that objections are irrelevant. I am therefore quite happy to wait and see you realise that if there should be a second referendum, it will not be "rushed through" as you so delicately put it.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  16. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    I seriously doubt whether that deal will ever go through.

    She is wasting time we don't have any more

    We are in serious trouble if what we end up with is a no deal caused by May's delaying tactics.
    ilovesooty and dumpty like this.
  17. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Question for those who may know parliamentary procedure:

    If May gets her deal through parliament despite the DUP voting against, can the DUP then withdraw support and it all collapses anyhow into a new GE?

    Or must the DUP do that before an actual vote for it to be effective?
  18. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    You cannot invalidate a referendum with a campaign, however huge.
  19. Geoff Thomas

    Geoff Thomas Star commenter

    Oh, ***, Numpty.

  20. EmanuelShadrack

    EmanuelShadrack Star commenter

    We'll know for sure that we'll have one if she officially denies that we will, just like the general election, or the vote on her deal, etc.

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