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So what now for Brexit?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by dumpty, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    Why did you rely on the Tory Party as your only source of information leading up to the Brexit referendum? It should have been possible to make an informed decision without relying on the Conservatives (or UKIP) to make your mind up for you.
    Given the outcome, you must surely regret not putting in a bit more effort to understand the important issues
     
  2. Duke of York

    Duke of York Star commenter

    You're avoiding dealing with the fundamental point. The referendum was a Tory party matter to deal with a split amongst that had been incompetently allowed to fester for years.

    It isn't my job to be part of resolving that. If it's a toss up to let Cameron win and suffer more of his appalling policies, or vote on a wing and a prayor against Cameron that anything would change, the answer is clear. Just allow the Tories to self-destruct and move on after that happened.

    I don't want to leave the EU, but neither do I want to live under oppressive and incompassionate Tory rule, which in my eyes, is the worst of the two evils.

    Whether you are able to accept it or not, my abstention along with the many others who abstained helped to make people aware that the Tory party has long overstayed its welcome as a governing party; and moreso prove it is entirely unfit to govern, since its sole interest has been self preservation above its duty to the citizens it governs.

    I remind everyone that the first responsibility a government has is to protect its citizens. Protect its citizens above all else.

    The Tories failed abysmally in that duty and the sooner all memory of them is erased from history the safer we all will be.
     
  3. Oscillatingass

    Oscillatingass Star commenter

    No, not at all, sarcasm and nastiness are key characteristics of your posting style and have been for quite some time. Indeed, it amazes me you keep getting away with it.
    1. Someone in the media could very easily have told the local Labour party that Johnson was coming to town. I don't see why you believe this such an impossible occurance.
    2. In whose interests would it be to "let the cat out of the bag" regarding the source of the leak? It would only benefit Johnson supporters wouldn't it?
    3. I have never denied that Omar had a very good reason to be at the hospital. You seem fixated by this for some reason.
    4. I never said " a high level of confidence is unique to political activists". Please feel free to copy and paste where I used these words. I did suggest that political activists are more likely to have the confidence to start shouting at high profile politicians in public places than rank and file members of the public. Of course you are unable to grasp this, but in my view, someone who is accustomed to attending fairly large scale public meetings where shouting is common practice is more likely to shout at politicians than someone who is not socialized into this mode of behaviour.

    May I suggest you find some way of exchanging opinions with members of this forum without trying to imply those with different views are in some way stupid or lacking in judgement? It is perfectly possible to exchange views in a respectful manner as you may notice when reading the vast majority of threads on the TES.
     
    lanokia and alex_teccy like this.
  4. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    It's looking like you've given us both of them.
    How will that be brought about? Censorship? Book burning?
     
    Oscillatingass likes this.
  5. Oscillatingass

    Oscillatingass Star commenter

    The night of the long knives.? Kristallnacht?
     
  6. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    This Tweet puts the 'it's the will of the people' nonsense back in its box...


    Mark Atkinson#FBPE #DishonestyDestroysDemocracy@profman60

    This week’s daily reminder: UK population 2016- 65mill =100%
    Electorate – 46.5mill = 71.5%
    Voted in ref. - 33.5mill = 51.5%
    Voted for Leave – 17.4mill = 26.7%
    The view of less than 27% of the 'people' is NOT a mandate to tear the country to pieces
    The madness MUST stop #StopBrexit
     
  7. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    It's a bit silly to include pre-school children as having an opinion on Brexit.
     
    Burndenpark likes this.
  8. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter


    Brexit had more effect for the young than for the old...
     
  9. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    Although true, things were actually more complicated than that:

    The Referendum Party, campaigning on the single issue of an in/out EU Referendum, got the 4th largest share of the vote in the 1997 General Election.

    In 2004 Tony Blair promised a referendum on Europe, repeated in the 2005 Labour manifesto, but back-pedalled when the EU constitution became a simple treaty (the Lisbon Treaty).

    In 2008, the Lib Dems under Nick Clegg called for a referendum on Europe:
    upload_2019-9-23_7-38-31.jpeg
    The Lib Dem MP, JO SWINSON, said at the time "The Lib Dems would like to have a referendum In and Out of Europe" - a call repeated in the 2010 Lib Dem manifesto.

    In 2009, UKIP became the second largest party in the UK's European Parliament elections.

    The real crunch came in 2010 when Alastair Darling, at the end of his time as Chancellor of the Exchequer, was faced with demands from the EU to help bail out the Euro - a currency that the UK has never used or wanted, despite which the UK had already helped out through the IMF.

    People now forget that as David Cameron took over in 2010 and tried to stop the attempt to force the UK to help the euro bailout, the EU used an emergency provision in the Lisbon Treaty to cancel the UK's veto - and thus we were faced with having to lend £3.2 billion to Eire and to provide £4.2 billion for Portugal at a time when the banking crisis had already led to severe deprivation of many poorer people in the UK. What people now refer to as "Tory austerity" but that was exacerbated by the EU forcing money out of the country to help Eire (Simon Coveney please note) and Portugal.

    That was the turning point for many. Although I have been a life-long supporter of the benefits of EU membership, that event made me realise that the EU is a profoundly undemocratic organisation and one that I now support only through gritted teeth. I think many felt the same, and that was the trigger (as Cameron admits in his book) for the decision to start planning to hold a referendum.

    But a referendum to deal with a split in the Tory party? No. Cameron admitted in his BBC programme on Thursday that George Osborne warned him that a referendum would SPLIT the party, not heal it, and he was right. And one only has to listen to today's news to see how the EU has also split the Labour party.
     
    Mr_Ed, Oscillatingass and lanokia like this.
  10. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    By the same 'logic' we shouldn't have remained in the EEC after 1975 as only 30.1% endorsed that view.

    What a dreadful tweet.
     
  11. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    By that reckoning, the fact that only 13.5 million voted Labour in 1997 should have meant that John Major and the Tories should have stayed in power. ;)
     
  12. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter


    Were Labour elected in a referendum, then? Strange I didn't notice that at the time!o_O

    Now, if you are arguing for replacing FPTP with Proportional representation, I might well agree... ;)
     
  13. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter


    Aren't you teaching English these days? You really ought to be more careful in your choice of language - 'dreadful'? Really...o_O What on earth will you say when you come across something REALLY dreadful, you know, like a 'comic' making anti-Semitic jokes, say...o_O

    What is 'dreadful' is your debasement of the language, old fruit... ;)
     
  14. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Nicola Strugeon: Only 36.9% of the Scottish population voted to stay in the Union therefore I am hereby unilaterally declaring Scottish independence.

    Always good to start the day on a laugh.
     
  15. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    No, Labour received votes from only 23% of the population so according to your nutty tweet, Labour should not have been elected.

    Wouldn't have made any difference. Think about it, 77% of the population didn't vote Labour so they should never have been elected (according to the village idiot).
     
    lanokia and Oscillatingass like this.
  16. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Just getting updates re Labour's party conference.....man, it is confusing.

    Something about large factions in the party wanting to force Corbyn to back Labour as a remain party but now Momentum are wading in and saying leave Jezza alone.

    We are fast heading towards the next election being Boris v Swinson......well, if Labour allows it.
     
  17. Owennnn

    Owennnn Occasional commenter

    I wasn't there in 1975 so I can't say, but were people marching around screaming "Will of the people" as one of the top arguments for staying in the EEC?

    I don't necessarily think the tweet (or Frank) is suggesting the referendum wasn't representative of the people who voted, but once the vote is done suddenly saying it is the 'will of the people' is a bit of a stretch. When in actual fact, it was more 'the opinion, of some, of the people, 3 years ago'.

    I'd have thought given the massive uproar caused by one member of the public exaggerating that the NHS had been 'destroyed', certain posters on here would be inclined to call out the 'will of the people' as a bigger exaggeration, since 26.7% =/= 100% and is a pretty big exaggeration to suggest.
     
  18. CraigCarterSmith

    CraigCarterSmith Established commenter

    English Court was right

    So was the Scottish Court

    so yup Fudge
     
  19. Oscillatingass

    Oscillatingass Star commenter

    Well of course I am completely taken aback by this.
     
  20. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    Labour hinting more and more they will not support any deal Boris might bring back (and that no doubt means May's deal too).

    Can' t they find some way to stop the waste of time and energy?

    Compromise:

    Boris gets a one month extension, GE for Nov 10th or so???
     

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