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So what now for Brexit?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by dumpty, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    It's over 12 hours since I offered this challenge... any one who thinks the hospital guy planned his ambush- how come you aren't able to find out the movements of a prime target for milkshakes and worse more than a few hours in advance - yet you claim that the hospital guy could?
    monicabilongame likes this.
  2. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    Time for Leavers to accept that the 2016 Referendum was not won. It was stolen. As this Tweet shows.

    carol hedges@carolJhedges

    Slap me down if I'm tweeting rubbish

    We know that Vote Leave lied (Cameron) We know that #Brexit promises won't happen IF this was a sports event, and the 'winners' were proven to have cheated/taken drugs, wouldn't they be stripped of their medals? Same should apply here.





    8:38 AM · Sep 20, 2019·Twitter Web Client

    Until Brexiteers accept that the Referendum result is invalid there cannot be peace in this country...
    monicabilongame and Burndenpark like this.
  3. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    35% of the popular vote in a GE would get him a win, 40% would get him a landslide.
    Thatcher understod this and got 3 terms- we're nearly back to the same point of having a badly spit opposition. The best hope we have is for Farage to split the rightwing vote.
  4. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Star commenter

    If that is true, there will never be peace.
  5. nomad

    nomad Star commenter

    There were lies on both sides. So, for balance...

    European Council President Donald Tusk, said western political civilisation would be destroyed if the UK voted 'Leave'. Since you are currently reading this, it is safe to say western political civilisation has not ended. Therefore, we must conclude this was a 'Remain' lie.

    David Cameron implied in a speech about the "serried rows of white headstones" that World War 3 would be upon us if Brexit occurred. The last time I checked the UK had not invaded Poland or any other country, and therefore we must conclude this was a lie.

    George Osborne predicted tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented. To date, no changes to the planned tax rates or public spending have been implemented. So, another lie, and thankfully after his sacking Osborne is no longer in a position create his 'punishment budget'.

    "A dangerous fantasy" was how Nick Clegg described Nigel Farage's claim of EU plans to create an army. Barely three months on from the Referendum Junker proposed an EU Army.
    install, border_walker, T34 and 2 others like this.
  6. dleaf12

    dleaf12 Lead commenter

    So the vote was conducted on the basis of universal lying. How is that a sensible basis on which to base our future?
    But that's the problem.

    Lies told by each side in an argument don't cancel each other out and somehow make things OK again.
    They add to the overall effect of making ANY decision based on them of no validity.

    according to Remainers, the Leave side lied, so the result is flawed and should not be respected.

    according to Leavers, the Remain side lied...

    which just makes the result even more flawed and not worthy of respect.
  7. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    Politicians have always lied. Surely everyone knows that? Throughout my 80 years there have been newspaper articles and books about the lies told by politicians - and, of course, the practice goes back long before that. The only difference today, it seems, is that people have started to express (or at least feign) surprise that politicians tell lies.
    install, border_walker, T34 and 2 others like this.
  8. dleaf12

    dleaf12 Lead commenter

    How then are we to make up our minds on who to vote for? Based on looks? Based on what they write? Based on what they have done? Based on examining and challenging what they say?
  9. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Based on your personal conscience?

    We don't have much else...
    border_walker likes this.
  10. dleaf12

    dleaf12 Lead commenter

    And what information informs your concscience - how can your decisions borne of conscience have any worth on any matter outside of your immediate experience?
    sodalime likes this.
  11. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    Logic/commonsense. When Harold Wilson appeared on the box to tell me that his devaluation of sterling "does not mean that the pound in your pocket is worth less" it seemed obvious to me - as to almost everyone else - that he was lying because devaluation makes imports more expensive and so the pound in the pocket is indeed worth less.

    Admittedly, lies are not always immediately obvious. I'm thinking of when Thatcher lied to the Commons over the Westland Helicopter affair and when Blair lied about his dodgy dossier. But my old mum always used to say "Be sure that your lies will find you out", and I think she was right.
  12. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    And points 1, 2 & 3 above could still come to pass - we haven't left the EU yet, after all...

    And even if an EU army comes into existence, there was never any expectation that the UK will have to join it. It may still happen - do you think we'll have more of a say about it, how it's used etc if we are in or out of the EU?;)
  13. dleaf12

    dleaf12 Lead commenter

    Indeed. Sadly Common Sense is a rare commodity, and the powers of logic do not seem to be as widely spread among the voters as perhaps we need. Many seemed to labour under sad misapprehension about who had control over such things as NHS spending, Immigration of non-EU people, and indeed the right to remain in the UK, unless able to support oneself, of EU citizens - so their logic, limited though it was, would have led them into erroneus decisions.

    Again I agree, and it is in the time it takes for lies to be discovered that the problem occurs. A fact that Cummings is exploiting to the max by lying so fast and so frequently that he hopes to put the matter beyond issue before being found out, for in so many cases by the time a lie is shown for what it is, it is too late for anything to be done about it.

    Fortunately in the case of BREXIT the lies HAVE been discovered in time (just) to undo the decision. We should cancel Brexit and Revoke Art50 forthwith. The decision WAS based on lies.
    dumbbells66 and sodalime like this.
  14. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    But you've just identified your personal conscience... it is based on your personal experience.

    We experience the world through the lens of our own life. Some people see Johnson and think 'I'll vote for him'... others see exactly the same action/words and decide 'I could never vote for him'.

    It is our experience that informs our conscience than then informs our choice. If a politician says something that chimes with our conscience then we gravitate towards them...
    install and border_walker like this.
  15. sodalime

    sodalime Lead commenter

    But surely that's fine and well in a political system like China's for example, but here, the lying culprits don't have to face the consequences of their lies in the same way.
  16. sodalime

    sodalime Lead commenter

    You beat me to it (my bold)
  17. sodalime

    sodalime Lead commenter

    Our values, more so, no?
  18. dleaf12

    dleaf12 Lead commenter

    You are describing what happens in many cases. But what you describe is more akin to blind instinct rather than conscience.

    Rational, reasoned, logic-based decision making - (which has been shown to outperform pure instinct over the long run time and time again, read Warren Buffet on investing for one example) - requires accurate, truthful and relevant information.

    We now know that we were denied that in large measure during the Brexit Referendum campaign. It follows that the consequent decision is, at best "unsafe", at worst, fraudlently obtained.

    In the light of present day knowledge it should not be allowed to stand. We should revoke Art50 and cancel Brexit.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  19. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    Looks like we're back to certain parties trying to get the thread shut down again...
  20. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    I'm not sure there will be, this could rumble on like Thatcherism.

    Ermmm didn't the Government and the BoE increase borrowing and extend QE almost immediatly after the count? Same result by different means.
    And considering the debt will have to be paid off from taxation- it only put off the spending cuts/ tax rises for a few years.

    And then there are appologists who argue that technically it wasn't a lie (for example the media were present not the press) or that clearly the lie can be excused since the lier was set up (for example by someone managing to get a hospital appointment to coincide with a politician's visit which would have been kept secret in advance):rolleyes:
    CraigCarterSmith likes this.

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