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So, no ict at all in the EBac?

Discussion in 'Computing and ICT' started by mossonbrick, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. What on earth do you mean by "we all know how little maths is in a maths GCSE?" Have you loooked at a GCSE paper recently - I think percentages, algebra, surds etc etc are maths aren't they. Perhaps you don't understand the maths and so you think it isn't maths!! I agree with the further post - I thought we were all teachers of children!!
  2. If ICT skills are hobbies, surely music, PE, design, art would also be hobbies? I teach maths, but would hate to work in a school without all these other "fun" subjects teaching pupils vocational skills as well as potential interests for their adult lives
  3. Sorry johnbrown - didn't realise you had to be "a regular" - don't want to be in youor club thanks anyway
  4. I have posted once, i.e. in this forum, because the subject demanded my interest. No other reason. You have a strange obsession with socks.

  5. Have to agree with this. My 1st time in this forum and all i see is peeps slagging eachother off!
    For anyone who has n't yet understood the full implication of what Gove is generating here: it is al full scale attack on the entire teaching profession as we know it! Academies, Free schools etc ect are intended to destroy the Unions and with them OUR terms, conditions and rights in the work place. Once, these all become negotiated locally by whatever "Private sponsor" your school has, dont be surprised when they turn around and say "Oh by the way" we're going to be running an evening course & you're going to be delivering it". Or, "Over 1/2 term we 're running this new course and you're running it". or worse still, "you know that 6 week holiday you get in the summer, well, we think you should only have 2!"
    This whole thing is an extremely well orchestrated attack on the unions and national pay bargaining of our profession. Let's not anyone underestimate this.
    The lack of ICT in the "ebacc" (or anywhere else for that matter), is obviously a crucial issue for anyone invloved in the delivery of the subject. Apparently ICT is seen as a "Soft" subject. The Russell grp Universities have now come out and identified their preferred subjects and once again ICT doesnt feature in any form.
    The captains of Industry aren't making any noise about any of this, why?? Even those huge companies who attend BETT every year & schmooze their prospective customers fior a few days dont seem to be making any waves about this. What is going on. These companies make a fortune from the Education of children in state schools & they are prepared to sit back & let the subject disappear??? Why would they do this. They will be the big losers if ICT disappears from the curriculum. None of this makes sense.
    Does anyone know if / what representations are being made at a higher level? surell the MD's of these companies should be beating at the door to Gove's house.
    We cannot afford to sit back & let it happen! so instead of bitching about eachother , or sniping at other departments, we should be uniting as a profession to say that this is a completely unacceptable change to the entire state school system.

  6. BrianUK

    BrianUK New commenter

    Whilst I agree with the sentiment of this post, yet again (and in very short succession), another misinformed (well intentioned in this case) poster has added to the myth.
    " Apparently ICT is seen as a "Soft" subject. The Russell grp Universities have now come out and identified their preferred subjects and once again ICT doesnt feature in any form."
    Again, what is your source? Where are you getting this from? Have you actually read the Russell Group report? These off the cuff, casual, and simply incorrect remarks have to stop - it's getting truly ridiculous now and causing untold damage to the reputation of our subject which has nothing to defend.
    " We cannot afford to sit back & let it happen! so instead of bitching about eachother , or sniping at other departments, we should be uniting as a profession to say that this is a completely unacceptable change to the entire state school system."
    I completely agree.

  7. I know this is a little off subject but here goes,
    I know that GCSE's are supposed to give an insight into and a firm base in the subjects taken, but since being in the education system and having seen from an employers' view also, how little these qualified kids know about ICT is frightnening.
    ICT GCSE is little more than MS Office for beginners with little or no theory behind the terminology, the technology or the history.
    Kids think that the Internet and the WWW are the same thing (owned by Microsoft) and tell me that when they can not find what they are searcing for on Google, that the internet is not working, My usual answer is one of feigned horror and exclaim, what, hundreds of millions of computers world wide have all stopped working at once?
    Get people to re-boot a machine and some will turn the monitor off and on again, then complain that the fault is still there.
    Complain that their hard drive is not working and they mean that the PC is not powering on.
    People who come and ask for a Powerpoint to do a presentation, sometimes get given a CD with PPT viewer on it rather than a laptop, projector and screen.
    I could go on, but you get the picture.
    Before we adress the point of whether the subject should be included in the EBac (it still is in the Welsh Bac), firstly we shoud look at is the sylabus taught up to scratch and when we see that it is not, then getting it to a level where it can be included again because as it stands, ICT are just 3 random letters thrown together for warmth which are no god to man, woman nor beast.
    At risk of sounding like an old f@rt, When I took 'O' LEvel Computer Studies as it was back then, we were taught about the insides of the machines, the history of their development, how to program and generally what they were, rather than click, drag, drop from Wiki to get a grade.
  8. Spot on Mike. A statement of the bleeding obvious, but one that has to be made.
  9. ICT in some ways is a soft subject. Some of the office skills that students gain in this subject are provided by other subjects in their ICT provision. It is the responibility of ICT as a subject to build on these skills to give a student an idea of where they might want to take this knowledge further.
    The idea that sound, film editing and image manipulation being hobby skills is absurd. Employers now expect these skills almost as much as the standard office suite. The marketing teams in my last three firms were no longer allowed to use the creative departments for pitches or presentations. I imagine with smaller businesses where staff need to be more and more flexible about their roles, these seemingly limited skills teach students not just the programs themselves but also key terms that will facilitate communication between departments. For example,I was approached by one of our scientists last week about a paper he was publishing. The journal had sent back feedback about his paper with issues with some of the images. Out of a team of 10 I was the only analyst able to translate the fact that none of his images were in the CMYK color space, his bitmap images were only 72 dpi and therefore not suitable for press use. His vector artwork had been submitted as JPEGs and also were substandard. This is not an isolated case at my institute. There are many academics here (not as old as one might think, by the way) that do not have the ICT skills to publish their own research. The briefs from the journal publishers are written in plain English from a publisher's standpoint. Laypeople are expected to have a basic understanding of what is required for computer to plate (CTP) publishing in terms of PDF, EPS and JPEG files. Yet this is not covered in detail really in any other subject than ICT. I am sure that this can be seen with music and video editing but our scientists all have macs so run all of the microscope footage through iMovie and they have little use for any music production software.
  10. Hi Brian Uk, the source of this is from the Russell group document "informed Choices final" which you might want to google and read. And i quote
    “The ‘facilitating subjects’ are the subjects most likely to be required or preferred for entry to degree courses, and choosing them will keep more options open to you at University.”
    the subjects in question being these:
    • Languages (Ancient and Modern)These are described as being "facilitating A-Levels" ie those that open the most doors etc.
      Hope this helps to clarify my point and validity.
  11. Please do not get me wrong, I am not saying that the skills learned in ICT are worthless or useless, far from it as you point out, many firms expect desk jockeys to turn out presentations and documents, formerly processed by dedicated reprographics departments, but as these have been cut, it falls to the end user to provide them.
    What I was trying to get accross was that these areas need to be IN ADDITION to the old school curriculum aspects, as without the basic understanding, data can not become information which can not become knowledge, just regurgitation of a process and when things do not go to plan, there is no insight into what is the problem or how to resolve it, no matter how simple it may be.

  12. JaquesJaquesLiverot

    JaquesJaquesLiverot Established commenter

    I think some of you missed the point of my post. I wasn't saying that graphics, sound and video shouldn't be taught because they are hobby skills, but the fact that they're hobby skills - i.e. the fact that you're much more likely to do them at home than at work - is the motivating factor.
    My point was that they need to be taught carefully, because just teaching someone to edit a video in MovieMaker or edit a picture in Fireworks really only teaches them to edit a video in MovieMaker or edit a picture in Fireworks as, often, graphics and video editing applications vary greatly, and being able to use one doesn't mean that you'll be able to use another. As you point out, teaching about colour spaces, resolutions, frame-rates, aspect ratio, etc., would be more useful.
  13. It's funny you say that. I had a discussion with an ICT teacher I observed about software. The school had, as standard, installed Adobe Creative Suite. They were teaching DTP using Microsoft Publisher. I've worked for 3 marketaing agencies, 5 large publishing houses and one newspaper. All of them now use Adobe InDesign as their layout software. InDesign, to an extent, requires a knowledge of terms like artboards, tracking, leading, kerning, ligatures, etc. and is to date considered the industry standard. Microsoft Publisher is generally considered to be one of the worst layout programs, saved from the bottom spot by what Quark XPress has become. Problem was that Microsoft is a household, or businesshold, name now and curries more respect from schools and examining boards.
    Seemed odd to me...
  14. Sorry for my spelling of marketing, My finger slipped and I missed it...
  15. BrianUK

    BrianUK New commenter

    If you read the report closely ;) you will see that ICT is mentioned twice as a "Useful A Level" in the report. You are misinformed and worse still your rhetoric is simply making things worse. I suggest you concentrate your rhetoric on subjects that have been specifically mentioned in other reports as not useful: Media Studies, Accountancy, General Studies, Critical Thinking to mention a few.
  16. BrianUK

    BrianUK New commenter

    I have replied twice and neither worked sadly. I am in a country that has decided to curb the internet while it deals with the riots :(
    Ayway - third time lucky. If you read the report ;) you will find that it, in fact, does mention ICT twice as a useful subject. Your statement that "ICT is does not feature in any form" is misleading at best. I suggest targetting Business Studies, Accountancy, Media Studies, (to name a few) instead. ;)

  17. @Brian,
    this forum post is specifically about ICT so mentioning other subjects (and yes there are plenty), would not be relevant.
    As for my "rhetoric", anyone who does not see the whole "Importance of Teaching" Whitepaper, as a full on attempt to dismantle the state education system in the UK and bring in privatisation through the back door really does need to "wake up & smell the coffee" as was said by a previous contributor to this debate. (sorry i cant remember which person that was : ( )
    Anyhow, i reiterate, in these trying times ahead, what we need more than anything else, is a unified rejection of these impending changes and as a professional body, if we value our livlihoods and care for the pupils we teach, we should let this Mr Gove know in no uncertain terms that his changes are not welcome.

  18. "The kids that do take KS5 IT courses tend to be weak students with limited options." Just felt like wrongly stereotyping a group of people? I'm currently Studying KS5 ICT (This we-site was recommended on my Work Experience) but that means i have limited options? I think that ICT, Maths, Physics and Chemistry will do me considerably well.

    Any way now ignoring the naievity of some people i am just wondering your oppion on something; Im currently looking at Uni courses and have found Edge Hill's ICT KS2/3 Education with QTS; I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience in the course personally or through friends?

    Oh and in my opinion ICT should be taught all the way through the schooling experience and should cover basics such as web safety, word processing, power points (and how not to over kill them), spreadsheets,data bases, basic programming (such as functions in spreadsheets), Video editing etc
  19. Well if all the schools just simply boycotted the E-bac and universities refused to use it as a measure it would be a suitable rebuke for Mr. Gove who might have to rethink his reversion to a pre-1970's curriculum!

  20. Well what do you know, but I did QTS at
    Edge Hill! Actually I don't think too many kids taking Maths, Physics
    and Chemistry also did ICT. At my school, Kids capable of A
    level maths and/or physics are generally advised to do computing over
    ICT by my HoD. The <u>fact</u>, and I repeat <u>FACT</u>, is
    that less able kids take ICT and this is validated by statistics -
    look at University of Durham research. I personally am something of
    an evangelist for teaching programming 'et al' to less able students
    (having only got 6 GCSEs myself) butI know many a teacher of ICT who
    maintains programming etc is a dark art confined to super intelligent
    boffins with no social life or evil enemies of the state that
    benefited from a grammar school education ;) I say kids that want to
    learn, usually can learn, if they havea dedicated (and
    importantly, experienced) teacher to support them.


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