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so have we actually run out of teachers? and what happens now?

Discussion in 'Education news' started by dunnocks, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Not sure these two quotes entirely agree then. Which was my point.
    Moony likes this.
  2. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Only if you wish to ignore the 48-hours of explanation I've given you since but why change now when you're on a roll?
  3. tsarina

    tsarina Occasional commenter

    I did not realise you could get a PGCE without QTS. What would be the point? Who goes to uni to study a PGCE if they aren't going to be a teacher? Is it for academics or university tutors?

    Out of interest are the other routes supposed to provide more placement hours or more mentoring or something?

    I felt I got a really good grounding in my PGCE (with QTS) in both the academic and practical aspects of teaching (granted i had very good lecturers who were/are practising academics involved in active useful research and very good school mentors who knew how to coach) I find it difficult to understand how other routes might be better when all i have seen is a lot of teach first and school direct teachers effectively chucked in at the deep end and told to teach from day 1 with no back up; no one in the room to provide support or feedback. A meeting once a week and the occasion observation is nowhere near as much training as i received.

    NB yes i know anecdotal experience does not provide proof but it is all I have to make conclusions from. It would be interesting to hear other peoples take on routes into teaching.
    Mrsmumbles, grumpydogwoman and JL48 like this.
  4. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    you need to pass your teaching practices to pass a pgce. I don't think it has more lecture room time than teach first, its just that teach first people have all their lecture room time in one go at the begining, and PGCE students have one day a week for a couple of months.
    JL48 likes this.
  5. Jolly_Roger1

    Jolly_Roger1 Star commenter

    The short-term chickens have come home to roost. Over the last decade, schools have ruthlessly 'combed out' most of the qualified and experienced teachers. Potential entrants to the profession will look at this and wonder what is the point of training for a 'one year career'?
    Shedman, JL48, tonymars and 1 other person like this.
  6. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    The days when teaching establishments fill their quotas with eager young recruits are gone for ever.
    drek and Shedman like this.
  7. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Not at all. It's just that these days they won't be qualified and will know b***er all about their subject.
    Mrsmumbles likes this.
  8. Mrsmumbles

    Mrsmumbles Star commenter

    And yet...one cannot polish a toord. You really can’t. You just get covered in manure, suffocated and leave with a nasty lingering trauma that gin and bubble baths cannot remove. Some people do just not want to learn, hate education, like to stuff it up for everyone else, make life miserable for teachers and frankly would be better off on traineeships. It’s like some kids want to create their own elite underclass of underachievement. Depressing.
  9. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    You did mention a lot of of stuff that I didn't find relevant to my original point (although it was interesting).

    My point was that a PGCE course was 2/3 placement and only 1/3 university based, so your comment that PGCEs were lecture based was incorrect. On this precise point, I am right and you weren't. You tried to change the course of the conversation - as I suspect you knew that I am right on this particular point.

    Better luck next time :D
    Moony likes this.
  10. tonymars

    tonymars Established commenter

    Polish a toord (turd?). Nice one.
  11. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Despite my explanations, despite your acknowledgements of and interest in these, despite the concordance of your own evidence with my position and despite the lack of a much-vaunted squadron of other teachers & ITT workers cresting the hill to bolster your position, still you will not admit that PGCE is an academic qualification which is university based. Who do you think it is that initially developed PGCEs, still runs most of them and now typically provides necessary academic content via lectures for candidates on SCITTs? Supermarkets? Garden centres? Your local dog-grooming parlour?

    I don't need luck to show that your position is wrong. I have the facts on my side.
  12. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    Well, I'm 62 and have been out of it for 5 years but could easily slot back into it. So, I suspect, could thousands of retired teachers.

    But I shan't because I don't want to. I don't like the way things have gone.

    Nonetheless we're still here. Still capable.
    dleaf12, Mrsmumbles and BetterNow like this.
  13. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    That was never my point, and you know it. You do like your straw man arguments!

    And with a fabulous avatar! Forgive my ignorance - who's it of?
  14. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    It is precisely to your point. The PGCE is a university-based academic qualification. That it requires candidates to spend time on placements does not alter this one whit. I really don't see what you hope to gain by disputing this further. You've already attempted to provide evidence against my position; it agreed with my position. You summoned @MrMedia to put me in my place; he made clear to you that university ITT staff do a tremendous about of work behind the scenes verifying placement contact time, modifying the course & evaluating candidate experience, and training school mentors &c in what the university requires of them. I know you thought you had a zinger with this one but, seriously, you'd have as much success arguing that water is not wet as arguing that the PGCE is not a university-based qualification.
  15. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    No it's not.

    You said:
    I replied:
    Notice that I didn't say that PGCEs weren't accredited by universities.

    Watch this. I am Alice and you are Bob. Don't be Bob. Be Alice.

    Pomza likes this.
  16. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Your declaration that I am not arguing against your position does not mean that I am not arguing against your position but if you are determined to be literal then you should acknowledge that I have not said that PGCE candidates do not spend time on placements. Still the PGCE is a university-based qualification.
  17. baxterbasics

    baxterbasics Senior commenter

    Come on, people, isn't this getting a bit boring now?

    And back to the original thread...
  18. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    That is true. However, you did say this:

    to which I replied this:

    Much as Bob may wish to change the terms of debate, as Bob is wrong, Alice will stick to her guns :D
  19. MrMedia

    MrMedia Star commenter

    I can only add that we sell our course as a partnership between the HEI and the schools. It’s a team game. What HEI brings is that we are all ex-school staff who are not line managed by the schools. This means our interest is in the trainees and it is helpful for a trainee to not be constrained by the power within a single school or two. Trainees often perform very differently in one school over another. This is why the teaching has to happen away from the school -it creates a safe space for the sharing of different ideas.
    Mrsmumbles and JL48 like this.
  20. Moony

    Moony Lead commenter

    I think it's an option that ITT providers have in reserve if they have a trainee that's passed all of the course requirements but has still managed to stuff up the QTS somehow. Some one I trained with made it all the way to the end and then, not that I can remember why, just couldn't complete some aspect of the course. I think they got something like a PGCE but without the QTS.
    tsarina likes this.

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