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so have we actually run out of teachers? and what happens now?

Discussion in 'Education news' started by dunnocks, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Not as much as I hate bleeding heart liberals:D.
     
    Mrsmumbles likes this.
  2. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    They are mainly delivered in lecture theatres. PGCE is an academic qualification. QTS is achieved through placements. They are distinct from one another. Most people who have either know this.
     
    wanet likes this.
  3. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    They only exist in your fevered imagination David.
     
    Moony likes this.
  4. tsarina

    tsarina Occasional commenter

    My PGCE had the first term with 2 days a week in a school and the rest lectures. The second term was all in school except for the last three weeks. I actually moved away in the second term to be nearer the school. The third term was back in the placement.
    As far as I was aware you didn't pass the PGCE if you hadn't completed the placements.
     
  5. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    As I have both, and my experience differs wildly from yours (as does @tsarina 's), lets ask someone who definitely knows:
    @MrMedia
    Vince and I are disagreeing on a point about PGCEs. He claims that they are mainly delivered in lecture theatres. My experience is that the placement formed the majority (about 2/3rds) of my course. Which would you say is more accurate?
     
  6. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    There are certainly placements but nothing is "delivered" to you there. They are made available that candidates have the opportunity to apply theory and experience it as practised by professional teachers. The PGCE is an academic qualification.
     
  7. andrew07

    andrew07 Occasional commenter

    You know, if teachers were left to get on with the job of teaching then we would not be in this mess. Hell no I won't teach full time and abide by a contract. As for the politics involved, not very many complained about Labour starting the academies and planting them here, there, and everywhere. But when the Tories came in, oh boy it was a horrible thing then. I remember people begging for a new government in 2009.

    But, it isn't just the politics though. You've got heads and vice principals who sit with their ilk behind closed doors and they dream up of elaborate schemes that really don't make a bit of difference. What will make a difference? Everyone needs to be involved, not just sitting behind closed doors.
     
  8. Grandsire

    Grandsire Star commenter

    The BEd students I knew used to look down on us PGCE students and tell us that we simply didn't have long enough in school placements, so we couldn't possibly become good teachers. So one day we sat down and counted up - and over the course of their degree, they did about two weeks in school more than we did in the year. So they pretty much lost that part of the argument! They spent a lot more time learning about philosophy, psychology, child development and researching educational methods and ideas in college, of course. If I'd had to do three years of college-led stuff to qualify, I'd have probably given up!

    We'd all had to have extensive experience in schools even to get on the PGCE course, too, as it was over-subscribed, and frankly most of the time in college (as far as I was concerned anyway) was waffle - some of us had already been planning and delivering lessons in schools through other routes, and had been doing so for some time, and simply needed the piece of paper. The fact we'd already done a degree helped too. The BEd students, on the other hand, tended to lack this experience - and a lot of them had a lot of growing up to do!
     
    sabrinakat and monicabilongame like this.
  9. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Should be. There will be feedback in lesson observations, not to mention the mentoring sessions, and most schools run after school CPD for their NQTs and student teachers.

    My understanding is that the placements are an integral part of the PGCE (at least that is what I was told when I did mine) and that you can't pass it without it. If I'm wrong, could you please cite evidence to help explain?

    Anyway - I thought that this sums up the course from my perspective fairly well. (The bolding and underlining is mine).

    What does a PGCE involve?

    It can be a very intense nine months, at times balancing lesson planning, teaching, marking and your own assignment deadlines. Up to two thirds of your time will be spent on placement in schools, teaching in two different key stages. Your placements will help you to explore theory in practice.

    Often starting with an academic focus, the PGCE includes three large elements of university study, one a term. This leads on to a gradual immersion in school with an emphasis on research informed and evidence-based teaching.

    You will also work towards meeting the professional standards which determine recommendation for QTS. Assessment is ongoing and progressive, developing the academic standards required for the Masters-level PGCE and QTS. At the same time you will work through personalised development plans to ensure that you're able to target individual strengths and improvements.

    In this way, your academic performance and teacher development are closely linked. So you will reflect, get feedback from others and be assessed against the teacher standards as you progress through the PGCE.
     
  10. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    "Delivered" implies a uniform service, like a lecture or a set of notes, or CPD for teachers who already have their PGCE. Feedback is never this, for obvious reasons.

    This is true but the PGCE is an academic qualification. PGCE does not automatically confer QTS, the first may be obtained but an ITT provider is under no obligation to recommend a candidate for the second.

    Thanks for this. It summarises what I have said:

    "Often starting with an academic focus, the PGCE includes three large elements of university study, one a term. This leads on to a gradual immersion in school with an emphasis on research informed and evidence-based teaching."
    Prospects.ac.uk, accessed 5th February 2018.

    I'll repeat this. PGCE & QTS are two distinct qualifications. Yes, you can often work towards the second within the practical modules of the first but then the second is not an automatic outcome of the first.
     
  11. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Not quite sure that this backs up what you have said. To obtain a PGCE, you have to complete and pass your placements. No teaching practise, no PGCE. That was the case both in mine, and in the ones that I have mentored. And those placements take up roughly 2/3rds of the course. And frankly, even the other third tended towards seminar discussions and workshops rather than lectures.

    So my original point stands. I'm afraid on this one I'm right. And every teacher with a PGCE with QTS on this board knows it. Your assertion that a PGCE is largely lecture based is incorrect.
     
  12. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Here, compare & contrast:
    Any fair-minded person will conclude that the second quotation nicely rephrases the first.

    Given the comparison I have posted above, are you really disputing your own evidence?
     
  13. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    I don't disagree with the bits that you have highlighted in red. But that doesn't have a great deal to do with my point.

    Which is:

    "To obtain a PGCE, you have to complete and pass your placements. No teaching practise, no PGCE. That was the case both in mine, and in the ones that I have mentored. And those placements take up roughly 2/3rds of the course. And frankly, even the other third tended towards seminar discussions and workshops rather than lectures.

    So my original point stands. I'm afraid on this one I'm right. And every teacher with a PGCE with QTS on this board knows it. Your assertion that a PGCE is largely lecture based is incorrect."
     
    Inigo_Jones likes this.
  14. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    My PGCE was a long time ago but the lecturery bits were rubbish.
     
    blazer likes this.
  15. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Mine, it was some and some. I've since done an M. Ed, and I have to say I found theory more effective once I had some practise under my belt.
     
  16. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    So you acknowledge that your evidence is repeating what I'm saying, you acknowledge that the point of the placements are to apply theory and experience it as practised by professional teachers, but you are still going to disagree with your evidence.

    You are now saying that if you do not "pass" the practicals then you do not get the PGCE. For PGCE practicals you essentially have to turn up, do a little paperwork, teach a few lessons and not **** in your mentor's coffee mug. It's that hard to fail PGCE placements. The significant components of PGCE are the summative essays, the academic work combining theory with practical experience, because it's an academic qualification and realistically the only way someone is going to fail this is if they don't know how to email it to their tutor.

    Now QTS is a horse of a different colour. If you are studying for PGCE with QTS then there are umpteen ways you can fail every placement because there are so many bars over which you must jump.

    It may be that many teachers here agree with you but then they, like you, will not understand the difference between PGCE as an academic qualification and QTS as a practical qualification.
     
  17. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    Regardless, they are required to pass the PGCE, and form the majority of the course.

    That wasn't my experience with mine. It was made clear to us that whether we passed or failed the course depended almost entirely on our placements.
     
  18. MrMedia

    MrMedia Star commenter

    It is mandatory under statutory regulations that every trainee on any course completes 120 days in placement. This is equivalent to four days a week from September to end of June.
    It is written into the course as overseen by the QAA regulations that to be awarded the PGCE and recommended for QTS one has to pass all assessments. One of the assessments is demonstration of teaching quality as assessed against the teachers' standards. You cannot be awarded QTS alone unless that is the course you are registered for.
    How is training delivered? Well actually I have to write all this up and quantify every single contact and non contact hour so I know this. Some content is better delivered in a lecture theatre (Sue Cowley was in last year) - we bring in guest speakers from schools as well as deliver lectures in our specialist areas. About 30% of time is lectures. These are far more interactive and co-taught than you might think. The rest of university time is spent either in small workshops or tutorials with specialists. In addition, they have contact time allocated at school and the schools also deliver further school based training - planning trips, handling data, etc. The mentor will coach, instruct, question and generally use tutorial methods for several hours a week both orally and electronically. We train the mentors a great deal in this.
    The trainees are surveyed by the university half way through the course and changes to the course made in response to their survey feedback. They are further surveyed at the end and again in their NQT year by the NCTL to evaluate their training. It is always improving.
    I would suggest that just as teaching is very different to ten years ago so is teacher education.
     
    Pomza likes this.
  19. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Of course they are & do but only in the sense that you have to spend a significant amount of time in a car to learn how to apply the Highway Code.

    That course being PGCE with QTS.
     
  20. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Nice one.
     

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