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Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by aclockworkorange, Jun 12, 2015.

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  1. All the talk of the wide-eyed new SNP MP's who seem to be treating the House of Commons like Hogwarts got me thinking. Does the SNP have any actual ideology other than the obvious one, as it claims to be left wing, when in fact much of its methodologies are really right wing.

    Left wing-

    - "social justice"

    - education

    - Trident

    - Health

    Right wing

    - cult of leadership

    - appealing to lowest common denominator

    - waving flags

    - shouting

    - repetition

    - lies/secrets

    - promises

    - changing the past

    - demonising others....

    It reminds me of?
    argyllgirl likes this.
  2. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    I voted SNP after voting Labour for years. They're not perfect and ther's lots more to do (I wish they would bury CFE), but what do the other political parties offer at present? Labour are dead and buried in Scotland - they chased the votes of middle England and ignored those they claimed to represent

    At least they are actually in there, doing their jobs. Can't blame the SNP for a parliament still set in the days of Cromwell

    The Vow and Westminster antics during the referendum? Phoning old people telling them they'd lose their pension with a yes vote?

    Didn't the Labour administration in Glasgow just give permission for "Orangefest" to take place. A totally rancid and disgraceful episode.
    Joecowley likes this.
  3. halfajack

    halfajack Occasional commenter

    In what way do they appeal to the lowest common denominator?
  4. davieee

    davieee Occasional commenter

    The SNP told more than a few whoppers during the referendum campaign. Salmond in particular saying the SG had sought legal advice when they had not, being one.

    Also, it is entirely legitimate for a UK party to chase votes in any part of the country, even in "middle England". Lowest common denominator?

    Regards telling people their pensions were at risk if there was separation was no scare story. Pointing out that the SNP's financial forecasts were based on an abnormally high $114 per barrel of oil was responsible especially when the price of oil fell to under $50 earlier this year. Added to that the SNP's tacit acceptance that Full Fiscal Autonomy would leave a shortfall of over £7.6bn then you get to understand the financial implications of independence. You only have to look at the cuts in Greece where no section of society has been spared.

    No-one from the Yes / SNP side of the debate has even tried to answer the issue of currency and whether or not an independent Scotland would have its own central bank. The same basic questions remain unanswered.

    Regards "Orangefest", the members of the Orange lodges are still a large part of Glasgow and simply wont disappear after independance. They are here and here to stay. Persecuting them and treating them, or indeed any section of society, unequally would be fundamentally wrong.
    argyllgirl likes this.
  5. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    Membership of the Orange Lodge is in terminal decline. As previous candidates for membership realize that life is difficult enough without discriminating against others because of their religion, race or political persuasion fewer people will feel the need to join fascist racist, intolerant, bigoted organisations.

    The Orange Lodge is not a large part of Glasgow. It is a big part of bigoted protestant life for an ever-dwindling part of society. With the decline of heavy industry being a member of the Lodge is no longer a job requirement for any career because of the move to societal meritocracy. And let all of society be thankful for that. Members of the Lodge taint the Protestant religion and normal Protestants resent everything the Orange Order represents.

    The Orange Lodge won't simply disappear after independence: it will, however, decline to a core rump of fascist, racist, intolerant bigots. Much in the same way that the BNP (remember them?) haven't simply disappeared. In my own personal opinion, however, there is hope for maintaining or even increasing Lodge membership if immigration ever becomes a bigger political issue in Scotchland. Bigger immigration will give the Orange Order more opportunities to demonstrate their fascist, racist, intolerant bigotry.

    Persecuting any section of society is indeed fundamentally wrong. The Orange Lodge has got away with it for decades. The Orange Lodge has persecuted and treated other religions and sections of society for far too long. This situation will decline and eventually stop. It may take a couple of generations, but it is inevitable.

    How anyone in this day and age - the 21st century - can defend and excuse such a hideous, fascist, racist, intolerant, bigoted and supremacist organization like the Orange Lodge is simply beyond me. A 21st century teacher defending and standing up for such a hideous, fascist, racist, intolerant, bigoted and supremacist organization like the Orange Lodge? Priceless.
    Joecowley, micgbanks and Alice K like this.
  6. davieee

    davieee Occasional commenter

    Where does it say I was standing up for them? I was stating a couple of facts in that they are a large part of Glasgow and they will not simply disappear.
  7. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Didn't Labour keep spouting this pish during the election? Worked well.

    Oil is a finite resource - the price won't go down long term. The current dip in price is political because the USA and Saudi Arabia have clubbed together to squeeze Russia, but it won't last.

    I have to laugh at these comments who continually imply having a supply of a key natural resource is a bad thing. Norway has lower reserves of oil than the UK and it hasn't done them any harm. Australia has done well out of iron ore.

    To take Norway out of the equation, other north European nations (e.g. Denmark, Netherlands) have higher educational attainment and higher standards of living with less natural resources than Scotland. Westminster has controlled our resources for the benefit of a few, not for the many.

    I didn't want a shared currency. I wanted our cut of the Bank of England reserves (about 8.5%) to set up our own currency and central bank. This was a clear error by the SNP and the Yes side, and it probably cost the referendum. When the next Referendum comes round the same mistake won't be made again. Independence to me means sharing nothing with the rest of the UK except a border.

    Joecowley likes this.
  8. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    I think most people would interpret your comments as supporting the OO. Apologies if I've read that wrong.

    The OO is not a large part of Glasgow - any longer. It was, but not now. The OO is in terminal decline, a busted flush, an irrelevance in the 21st Century.

    The OO will not simply disappear: true. Normal people simply have no need - or willingness - to join extreme organisations in this day and age. OO membership will slowly decline over a period of years and it may take a couple of decades/generations for it to reach its core, rump, insignificant membership levels.

    Maybe in that period we will be able to get rid of state apartheid schooling in this country too, eh?
  9. davieee

    davieee Occasional commenter

    I wasnt standing up for them but the point I was trying to make was that no-one person or group in Scotland was going to disappear if the referendum went the other way and that everyone has rights even those I disagree with.
  10. subman68

    subman68 Occasional commenter

    There are 2 teachers in my school that are Grand "whatever the hell they are grand of" Masters in 2 local'ish lodges. I find it amazing that this is allowed by the GTC. the OO is by definition a sectarian organisation, to be part of such must bring your registration into question. Both these teachers regularly bring their regalia into school and try and promote the OO as some sort of charity organisation.
  11. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    Subman, you need to consider reporting them either to the HT, council or GCTS. Seriously.
  12. subman68

    subman68 Occasional commenter

    Jimmy, HT knows about it, Council know about it, PTA know about it. 1 is a union rep,(not my union) I was told that it is not an issue unless they try and recruit in the school. I was shocked but not that surprised.

    We then have people asking why we still have RC schools. Would you want a teacher that is in the OO teaching your RC kid?
  13. morrisseyritual

    morrisseyritual Occasional commenter

    There may well be a wrestle between the new wave socialist SNP and the longstanding, mainly centre right old guard.
  14. gnulinux

    gnulinux Occasional commenter

    How did we get from the SNP to religion??? All too easily it seems!!!

    While we are there, religion should have no part in our education system in my opinion. The only concession might be to allow it to be a choice subject at secondary level, objectively taught i.e. without bias, and examinable, so it would have a similar status to history or philosophy.
  15. gnulinux

    gnulinux Occasional commenter

    OP: It reminds me of?

    The Nazis? Khmer Rouge? ISIS? ... Give us a clue?
  16. subman68

    subman68 Occasional commenter

    religion should not be an issue in our education system but it is in our society. How can we ask RC parents to have their children taught by someone in the OO who see all thing RC as evil. While we have a society and education system that accept such people we need safeguards in our schools.

    I remind you all again about the case of the teacher that was punching the student shouting sectarian remarks at him, he was not struck off, he was suspended for 12 months then returned to the same place of work (returned like a hero) where the boy was a pupil.

    I am glad to say that it is changing but the SNP have long had links to non-RC religions, there are still meetings for the SNP in the "wee free" church in my village, I am band from entering as I am RC......yip 2015.
  17. Well - you choose - it's your list - but my list of how the SNP behaved didn't even include the often horrible and historical outcomes of "nationalism" (lebensraum, two world wars, genocide, etc). I'm not suggesting any of that for a second - but someone very clever is briefing the SNP and it's tactics were well recognised by George i

    Orwell over half a century ago...
  18. OP: It reminds me of?

    The Nazis? Khmer Rouge? ISIS? ... Give us a clue?

    Sorry - I should have posted this above.
  19. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    Linux-babe, just some random thoughts that go through my mind when posting . . .

    Subman-dude, thanks for the feedback. Sounds like you might be in Wicker Man.

    Back on topic, there was an interesting article recently in the Times, Guardian or Independent describing how the SNP has evolved since it was invented in 19-canteen. Not evolved enough it seems if they hold meetings in the wee frees - but then again, why would you want to enter such a place (other than to attend an SNP meeting obviously?!).

    I voted Yes because I don't see why we can't simply look after ourselves as a country. If we need to take an £8bn hit then so be it. Roll on 2016 and an SNP whitewash in the Holyrood elections.
  20. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Me too, but I don't buy the £8bn deficit or £7.6bn or whatever figure is shouted out next week. I'm not stating Scotland would be utopia, but after a while we'd be a prosperous wee country

    If we were no use to the union we would have been allowed to go. Coal, iron, steel and shipbuilding were seen to be dispensable and were shut down, so Scotland must have some use to them. The whole UK state engineered a No vote - via scares and threats in the media, the unionist parties and much of the business community and that usually always boils down to money.

    I note some of the independence minded commentators are suggesting, after the OBR's forecast that oil will only be worth a total of 2 billion over the next 20 years, that we (Scotland) should keep the oil and cut the 2 billion from our budget via the Barnett Formula if it's of no real use. Don't think that will happen somehow!

    Westminster is based on control and greed and has been for several centuries. They think the UK is a big player, economically and militarily, but it has been on the slide for yonks. The quicker Scotland gets out of this horrendously unfair union the better.
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