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Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by mrwatt1, Oct 3, 2018.

  1. mrwatt1

    mrwatt1 New commenter

    Considering that inclusion has meant that many children with learning difficulties are no longer educated in "special schools", should the class size maxima be altered to reflect this?

    Looking at the class sizes in secondary you can have a maximum of 33 in S1 & S2 and 30 in S3 upwards. In the experience of the majority of teachers I'm sure that these classes will contain a wide range of abilities - including several children with SEBD or moderate learning difficulties. I know of several classes where the majority of pupils have ASN (several of them moderate to severe) and others have SEBD, yet the class size remains at 30.

    Considering that for a "special school" the maximum class size for those with moderate learning difficulties is 10 and for those with SEBD it's 6, does this seem fair?

    If ever proof was needed that "inclusion" is simply a money saving tactic...
    ozlass, Alice K and puppyofdoom like this.
  2. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    I was thinking about this very issue on the way into work this morning, particularly wrt poor behaviour.

    The SLT's mantra in this respect will be that the child is entitled to an education. My mantra is that so do the other 32 pupils, and while the "difficult" child is present in class the others are being deprived of that entitlement. I really do think it's that simple. 32 times any other number always wins for me.

    So, what do we do? I don't know. But, on the other hand, is doing nothing the right thing? What can we do? There's not the cash to support such pupils, certainly not the sheer number of pupils causing problems in schools nowadays.

    I think schools will increasingly use internal exclusion using existing staff, which, again, takes away from the mainstream cohort and those pupils with genuine conditions. Over a number of years I think the number of "internally excluded" pupils will rise such that they will have their own classes and timetables within a mainstream school. This will be a slow process and will go virtually unnoticed by teachers too busy to notice anything other than their own excessive workload.

    It's not teaching any more, it's bending over backwards to meet the lowest common denominator.
    Alice K, Marisha and GuessWho like this.
  3. Marisha

    Marisha Established commenter

    I'm hearing that Local Authorities are now wanting to move away from Internal Exclusions too. Human rights and all that.
    bigjimmy2 likes this.
  4. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    As I said, 32 v 1?!
    Alice K and Marisha like this.
  5. Marisha

    Marisha Established commenter

    Quite agree with you.
    Alice K and bigjimmy2 like this.
  6. micgbanks

    micgbanks Occasional commenter

    I hear Glasgow has a new policy regarding exclusions which will make it virtually impossible to exclude pupils. That's a real concern considering that could include verbal or physical abuse of staff or pupils as well as the wearing regular low level stuff which blights school life and progress. If Glasgow get away with that you can bet the other LA's will be quick behind them to introduce such a policy.

    It always seems to be the teachers fault. What have you done to mediate the behaviour? What steps have you taken to allow this pupil to access the curriculum? Are you differentiating your materials appropriately?

    The 300 minute prep & correction time for teachers was set at a time when we didn't have tbe range and numbers of these pupils in our schools and classes. Maybe it's time for that time to be greatly extended to allow us an effective amount of time to deal appropriately with all of our pupils?
    ozlass and Alice K like this.
  7. Marco82

    Marco82 Established commenter

    That's an excellent point. I wonder if it's ever been raised by the unions, at conferences and so,on. If not, it should be pursued vigorously. I think inclusion and teaching a huge range in every class is the bane of my life.
    ozlass and Alice K like this.
  8. beharder

    beharder Occasional commenter

    It really is shocking this pupils can do no wrong approach to discipline.
    As i said in another thread a pupil was arrested for an incident in school but not excluded.
    This looks like it will become the norm in Scottish schools
    "let me make this clear judge me on education"
    Alice K and Effinbankers like this.
  9. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Totally agree with your comments, but staff also have to play clever

    If you are assaulted phone the police and ask that the pupil is charged. The HT can't stop you, they are not above the law. Ensure (no matter how bureacractic) the forms are, fill in a violence/abuse form and ask, with the support of your union or H&S rep, for a risk assessment to be undertaken. It can keep them out of school/casses until this is done if there is a pattern (there usually is).

    Too often we ignore these things. I know of a pupil who abused/threatened several members of staff in one day and there wasn't one bit of paperwork on him
    Alice K and bigjimmy2 like this.
  10. xmal

    xmal Established commenter

    Also, keep copies of the forms and a diary.
  11. Marisha

    Marisha Established commenter

    Alice K and Effinbankers like this.
  12. Marco82

    Marco82 Established commenter

    Have any of you seen the report in today's herald about a 15 year old being charged with an attack on a teacher in Fife? Here are the comments by the Fife spokesman"

    In a statement, Fife Council said it takes the safety of all children and staff seriously. Fife Council education manager Gordon Wardrope said: "Our schools have a range of measures and procedures which support the well-being of all in the school community.Where incidents do occur these are dealt with timeously by the school.On the rare occasion that there are more serious incidents, schools work in partnership with Fife Police to respond appropriately."

    So that's all right then. Glad to know they've got people like this on the job looking after the welfare of teaching staff. What utter complacency! His words are a complete disgrace and reveal unwittingly that when it comes to it they don't give a flying toss about staff. Where is the outrage? Where is the determination to put a stop to this? Can you imagine the headlines, the commotion, the indignation of the victim of this attack had been not a teacher but a politician? Why is it considered acceptable, a mere run of the mill incident requiring no more than this bog standard reply when one of our colleagues is attacked in her place of work. The Government and its cronies can write all the vast reams of cr_p they want about education but here is the stark reality of what is going on. Will anything come of this? Not a chance. Makes me want to throw up when I read that reply.
  13. beharder

    beharder Occasional commenter

    Is this not attempted murder?

    The Fife council response is a disgrace.
    We take the wellbeing of staff seriously- nonsense.

    If this poor teacher had said F##k that and responded with some vigorous self defence the council would be all over this.
    ozlass, Marisha and bigjimmy2 like this.
  14. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Not clear if he was excluded

    In Fife of all places. Home of the Lochgelly tawse.
  15. Marisha

    Marisha Established commenter

    Par for the course for that council.
  16. micgbanks

    micgbanks Occasional commenter

    If you get stabbed in the neck with anything sharp there's a fair chance of damage to major blood vessels. Are teachers supposed to calm the pupil down and then write up a violent incident form prior to bleeding to death! That's got to be classed as serious assault. Interesting to see if purpotrator has previous. Is so unions should be pushing for refusal to teach. Risk assessment required at the very least. Teacher should be offered councilling and support. I'll be blunting all my pencils tomorrow.
    ozlass, Alice K and Marisha like this.
  17. Marisha

    Marisha Established commenter

    Fife has made it very difficult to exclude pupils for any longer than a few days.

    Parental comments on a Fife newspaper FB page made it clear that they think the boy will be allowed back. I hope they're wrong. I should have thought that secure accommodation would have been more appropriate.

    The school where it took place is known, in spite of the papers' refusal to name it. Two news outlets have reported that it's in a particular area - and that makes the school quite obvious. .
    Read the BBC or Evening Telegraph report, and you'll see just how ironic that comment is.
  18. Marco82

    Marco82 Established commenter

    labour maps were going about with bodyguards at party conference in case anyone shouted anti-semitic slogans at them - or what they deemed to be anti-semitic. wonder how they'd have felt if they'd been stabbed in the neck with a pencil. If the EIS doesn't make a major issue out of this then I'm resigning.
    ozlass and Marisha like this.
  19. Marco82

    Marco82 Established commenter

    Here is what the EIS rep in Fife has just said:

    "The vast majority of kids in Fife schools are responsible but there are increasingly a number of incidents that are very troubling."Our concern is really that something really bad is going to happen."

    Something really bad has happened!! What does it take to shake these people out of their lethargy?
    ozlass, beharder and Marisha like this.
  20. Marisha

    Marisha Established commenter

    I predict they won't make an issue of it.
    Alice K likes this.

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