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Six things we learned from Justine Greening's grilling by MPs today

Discussion in 'Education news' started by TES_Rosaline, Sep 14, 2016.

  1. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

    I don't remember being consulted over the countless good schools i.e. the grammar schools and a change to the faceless, sausage factory comprehensives to give "us" ("after all we are all in this together ") all this "choice", being got rid of. (Albeit in the majority of the north and working class areas - after all we couldn't upset the Colonel's, ret., dec. of the leafy areas of Tunbridge Wells could we? )

    As for the evidence supplied - it is subjective - statistics and all that and I have already said that the "improvement" in GCSE A to C grade results can be very easily explained away - and in view of the Goveite new exams, results are going to plummet (or at least until new methods have been establish to coach kids to death as to how to scrape a C)
  2. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    If any evidence supplied be it quantitative or qualitative will be deemed subjective if you don't agree with it, why ask for evidence?

    Indeed it is true there was no consultation on educational reform, perhaps this is where they are going wrong, since to consult those with a professional knowledge (as I have said before) or those with an interest might give a more balanced approach, especially since I don't think it was on the party manifesto when they were voted in so there is no mandate for it. Furthermore there is a £50m cost to it when they did claim austerity is key to the economy there seems have been some sort of oversight here.

    As I am sure you know the C grade is being replaced and the emphasis will be for schools to increase their progress measures by focusing on getting those the equivalent of "D's" up to "C's", this in my view is also a mistake although it does support the less able it will mean that the curriculum time will be skewed to disadvantaged students and away from the more able; thereby supporting the view of the introduction of the selective system... it is for this reason I think that these are loaded political and socially decisive policies are not actually anything to do with improved education for all or social mobility as claimed. Politics is complex and whoever currently trusts in the game of it is doomed.

    Oh I say equivalent of "D's" because many are still unsure exactly how the new changes will impact on learning, especially as at least one exam board has identified the 1-9 spec as for 11-19year olds, while as far as I can tell they are actually being introduced at age 14 and grade boundaries are unclear and some spec's have only just been ratified. :rolleyes:

    It is a right royal mess and it does not appear to be getting any better.
  3. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

  4. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    It is important although we already know how under appreciated and remunerated the profession is don't we?

    Perhaps teachers pay should be performance related so those in selective schools get paid more because they deserve it because they are more academic than the rest. I jest.
  5. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    It's the placing of it in an international context that I think is important. Plus it's not just the pay, but also the impact that the low pay is having.
  6. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

    I am not ignoring "evidence" I just question how it was arrived at, its relevance and how objective or subjective it was. As we haven't yet had any results in the "new format" I kept to what we all know. As I received "numbers" for "grades" I am probably just as at home with either. The focus has been on the D grades to Cs for years now, often to the detriment of the brightest children who can be relied upon to do "OK". Indeed an ex colleague of mine who does a similar job to me..... whenever working with a "bright" student, one capable of A grades, feels it perfectly ok to play the DVD film version of a Literature text during paid sessions! Gets away with it too as the pupil usually will get a B or maybe even an A grade and ....that's ok then.

    Did I miss something somewhere when it was put that there are only academic or the best teachers in independent or grammar schools? One of the cleverest members of staff I had (for Latin) was an Oxbridge graduate, I had to read my reports using a dictionary to be able to understand what he was writing (in English) but I have to say he wasn't a very good teacher.

    I agree it is a mess and as I keep trying to say do we really think that Boris, Theresa, or any of their ilk or for that matter too many in any of the other parties, really care about state school kids' progress? I do agree re feeling that the new grammar schools might well be sited to best suit the well heeled unlike in the days where it was open to any child as long as they had the ability.
  7. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Yes the focus has been on C/D borderline for years now, however it is hammered home with the progress 8 measure which actually rewards it more than say a C/B/A etc, to the point where limited budgets have left some schools reprioritising their curriculum offer in favour of the middle ground; it's a set up so to speak.

    Oh and not all comprehensive schools stream and set or do so across the board in those that do. I mean wasn't the higher and foundation paper differentiation enough to cater for different needs? Don't we just need better trained and experienced teachers to deal with behaviour since I for one don't think 6weeks in the summer is enough, then there was talk of untrained teachers in front of classes; it all smacks of a way to justify teachers poor pay if you ask me.... and if you don't ask me, fine have a nice Sunday.
  8. JL48

    JL48 Star commenter

    I increasingly think that it's time for the GCSE exam based system to go.
  9. hhhh

    hhhh Star commenter

    Pretty sure teachers in Grammars used to get paid not much less than doctors back in the old days?
  10. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    I have no idea, I'm guessing doctors were remunerated generously?
  11. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    It depends very much what epoch you consider. Teachers pay has never been brilliant but it has varied considerably with regard to the average of the different periods.

    Pre-Houghton teacher's pays had sunk to miserable levels. I remember, as a student planning to go into teaching, comparing the pay level I would get as a teacher with what I was earning as a van driver during the holidays, and it was not positive.

    Teaching salary also used to be (partially) dependant upon qualifications and some teachers in grammar schools were very well qualified. Some teachers in secondary moderns, on the other hand, had no formal qualifications at all. In Scotland this was formalised as pupil teachers, that is pupils who stay on at schools and turned into de facto apprentice teachers, but never necessarily getting any actual qualification. (And yes, I haven't forgotten the fact that some very well qualified people went to work in Sec Mods)

    I joined just after Houghton and can remember the delights of Clegg when my salary went up by almost 50%.
  12. saluki

    saluki Lead commenter

    When I was a grammar school pupil we all sniggered because our teachers were paid less than workers in a car factory. Well publicized at the time.
    All of our teachers had degrees, some MAs and the head of English was a 'Doctor' - confusing to an 11 year old who had just arrived at Grammar school.
  13. delnon

    delnon Lead commenter


    The Institute [for Fiscal Studies] was founded by four financial professionals – a banker and later Conservative Party politician (Will Hopper), an investment trust manager (Bob Buist), a stockbroker (Nils Taube) and a tax consultant (John Chown) in response to the passing of the 1965 Finance Act. In 1964, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer James Callaghan, had made a speech announcing his intentions to make changes to the tax system, including the introduction of a capital gains tax and a corporation tax. The group felt that the proposals were “half-baked”
  14. delnon

    delnon Lead commenter

    IMHO that is the real problem: perception (and its stable-mate, bias). Germany has run a tripartite system for a long time and it seems to work. There again, teachers in Germany are largely trusted to use their judgement place pupils in the appropriate schools; and they do seem to produce a fair number of skilled engineers.
    peter12171 and HelenREMfan like this.
  15. delnon

    delnon Lead commenter

    It would be - but it isn't. The people who misrule this country have no interest in seeing Tarquin and Tabitha having to compete for jobs against the likes of Gavin and Stacey.
  16. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    I am not sure why you posted a link to the history of the IFS from Wiki. If you read the report you would note that the data referred to therein is sourced at the Dept for Education... national statistics, there are links therein.

    I would go so far as to ask if all is well in state primary schools, why all the panic at secondary level and the rush towards selection?
  17. delnon

    delnon Lead commenter

    Just pointing out the need to check for bias.
  18. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    But you support the governments reintroduction of selection and the view that it is better for Gavin and Stacy?
  19. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Thanks, I did.
  20. delnon

    delnon Lead commenter

    No. I support the reintroduction of a properly-organised, properly-funded tripartite system to rival Germany's.
    This government is as likely to do that as it is to introduce PR for General Elections.

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