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Sick leave query

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by Vitalistics, May 19, 2019.

  1. Vitalistics

    Vitalistics New commenter

    Good morning,

    Asking for a friend...(see my other threads for my own woes lol)

    if you have worked a full year in a new school, how much time off sick can you have with WRS or pregnancy related illnesses, on full pay?

  2. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    However long is specified in the school's policy.
  3. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    Is your friend under Burgundy Book conditions in her current job? And before that? If you have worked in such schools for all or part of four different sick pay years (April - March) then you are entitled to 100 days at full pay and 25 days at half pay. Shorter than that is 25 days per year worked. If it applies, I suggest that you Google and download the Burgundy Book for full details.

    If not, then, as @caterpillartobutterfly points out, it would be whatever your school says it is, with a minimum of Statutory Sick Pay.
  4. averagedan

    averagedan Occasional commenter

    Seem to remember that if you haven't served two years at the school you are entitled only to statutory per se but most schools are pretty supportive and pay the full amount. If it's long term, less than a year and isn't covered by statutory regulation then you can be summarily dismissed without reason on a wide range of ground. Most protections/entitlements don't kick in for two years.

    Could be wrong.... Seem to remember this coming up in training a couple of years back due to changes in the law. Only a vague foggy memory exists.
    agathamorse likes this.
  5. Sundaytrekker

    Sundaytrekker Star commenter

    Check if they are under Burgundy Book conditions.

    What are the Burgundy Book entitlements?
    Teachers’ national sick pay entitlements, set out in the Burgundy Book, give a sliding scale entitlement according to aggregated length of service, as follows:
    During the first year of service:
    During the second year of service:
    Full pay for 25 working days and, after completing four calendar months’ service, half pay for 50 working days.
    Full pay for 50 working days and half pay for 50 working days.

    During the third year of service: Full pay for 75 working days and half pay for 75 working days.
    During the fourth and successive years: Full pay for 100 working days and half pay for 100 working days

    Local authorities used to honour service as cumulative from school to school when teachers moved jobs. Some academies honour this, too.
  6. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    If it is a standard teacher contract under Burgundy Book conditions, then this is totally wrong. From the day you start teaching you are entitled to 25 days at full pay and 25 days at half. also, changes in school are irrelevant, as all service in state schools counts to extending this to the maximum 100 days of each in the fourth year.

    I think they have to. The Burgundy Book says "For the purpose of the sick pay scheme, “service” includes all aggregated teaching service with one or more local education authorities." It does not even have to be continuous.
  7. averagedan

    averagedan Occasional commenter

    This handbook sets out the national conditions of service for teachers. It is not an exhaustive list of provisions and it should be read in conjunction with an authority’s own conditions, the conditions of employment as provided under the School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions Document and the provisions of individual articles of government which may provide further safeguards for and obligations on the individual teacher.

    Quote from the burgundy book - it's not "the end to all means" that you're implying it is.

    I'll check with HR at work on Monday what the two year rule is for.
  8. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    STPCD has nothing about sick leave. I don't know of any LAs which don't use the Burgundy Book, but perhaps there are some. If so, it should be in the contract.
  9. averagedan

    averagedan Occasional commenter

    Schools/LEAs can add a provision or two to your contract, these local level additions over-ride the Burgundy Book, which is more a set of ideal "principles" AFAIK which everyone has agreed to "try" to meet.

    It also doesn't apply to academies, it only applies to academies if they choose to follow it or they have TUPEd staff over, in the case of TUPE that time period is a limited protection.
  10. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    I did include the proviso that my comments only applied if Burgundy Book conditions apply. Whether this is the case should be clear from the teacher's contract.
  11. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Not true. I have never come across an LA that thinks that. LAs and unions alike consider Burgundy Book to be a collective agreement between unions and employers which is binding on the employer. Collective agreements are recognised in employment law although not usually legally binding and as para 1.2 of BB makes clear all LAs are expected to comply with BB. It isn't just an aspiration. Has anyone ever heard on LA that has 'withdrawn' from BB? I haven't.

    That doesn't mean an LA can't offer something that improves on BB within their LA, but they can't offer less. I know of an LA that allows service in academies to be aggregated with LA service for sick pay.
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
    strawbs and Piranha like this.
  12. averagedan

    averagedan Occasional commenter

    This is from the Burgundy Book itself, section 1.6:

    This handbook sets out the national conditions of service for teachers. It is not an exhaustive list of provisions and it should be read in conjunction with an authority’s own conditions, the conditions of employment as provided under the School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions Document and the provisions of individual articles of government which may provide further safeguards for and obligations on the individual teacher.

    Even the Burgundy Book says it's subject to over conditions that override it..... I think it should know ;)

    Also section 1.2 sets out an "expectation", expectations are not legally binding and therefore not enforceable.... So the section you've used doesn't support your claim as you imply.

    And it doesn't apply to academies which rules out a large swathe of out state schools. What percentage is it now? Over 50 I'm willing to bet.
  13. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    AS has been mentioned several times, we are referring to people covered by the Burgundy Book. Perhaps there are LAs which have changed the sick pay rules, but I don't know of any and it would be in the teacher's contract. Yes, not all academies use the Burgundy Book, though it should apply to teachers who were already under it there before they became academies.

    But regardless of this, there is definitely not a general rule that you are entitled to SSP only in your first two years at a school, which is what I was arguing with. Perhaps it applies in your school, but not everywhere.
    strawbs likes this.
  14. Vitalistics

    Vitalistics New commenter

    Thank you for your responses!

    So to summarise:

    Since she has worked with said employer for a full year, she is entitled to:

    50 days full pay, followed by 50 days half pay?
  15. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    As has been pointed out, it all depends on whether she is under the Burgundy Book terms for sick pay and, if so, how many sick pay years she has been employed in LA schools. The time with one employer is not relevant. unless there was no previous LA employer. But, the best thing to do if it applies would be to download the Burgundy Book.
  16. averagedan

    averagedan Occasional commenter

    Incorrect there's a time limit to TUPE.

    I never said there was, I mentioned that there was a minimum but schools normally choose to be more generous.

    Even the Burgundy Book itself says everything else over-rides it. Never understood why people get so attached to something that stopped being the end-all in the 1980s, I think it was 87?

    She needs to look at her contract for any relevant details, ask for a copy of the school's sickness and absence policy and contact her union.
  17. Torey

    Torey Occasional commenter

    As she has worked there for less than 2 years I’d suggest using pregnancy related illness. That is a protected characteristic. There is no automatic right to get full pay for a year as they can actually go through ill health capability procedures instead.
  18. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    You have just confirmed exactly what I and Piranha have already said. An LA can offer terms better than BB, it's a collective agreement that, like all collective agreements, isn't binding in law, and only applies in LA schools. So what are you arguing with us about?

    But an LA cannot leave out bits it doesn't like and remain in the collective agreement. It's not, as you seemed to think, merely an aspiration that LAs can pick and mix from.

    And do you know of any LA that has left the BB collective agreement?
    Piranha likes this.
  19. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    That is what I was referring to. You mentioned a minimum as if it were something that applied unless schools chose to vbe more generous.

    I didn't know that - can you point me to the rule somewhere? I know there is a time limit for making a claim if TUPE is not followed.
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  20. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    Mostly fine. If it just says Burgundy Book, then read that as suggested already. If not, look at your school policy, as I said in post #3. I wouldn't advise involving a union in just finding out what a school's policies are. Only speak to them if there is a problem.

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