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Should the Oliver Cromwell statue outside the Houses Of Parliament be removed?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Wanda_the_Wonder, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. Wanda_the_Wonder

    Wanda_the_Wonder Occasional commenter

    On the subject of the removal of offensive statues, should the Oliver Cromwell statue outside the Houses Of Parliament be removed? I certainly think so. The atrocities he inflicted on the Irish people are on a par with the evil of Pol Pot, Stalin, Srebrenica etc.

    install, SeanbheanMac and Spoofer4114 like this.
  2. Morninglover

    Morninglover Star commenter

    I'd say no. And to compare Cromwell with Stalin or Pol Pot actually isn't historically accurate. But should there be a plaque explaining the historical context of this and other statues? Yes.
  3. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    The statue of that notorious criminal, Robin Hood, has been repeatedly damaged - he's lost the bottom half of his bow. Probably best to melt him down into a nice set of bronze door knockers:

    Jonntyboy, alex_teccy and Sally006 like this.
  4. Aquamarina1234

    Aquamarina1234 Star commenter

    Whereas the king he displaced was a Saint.
  5. Wanda_the_Wonder

    Wanda_the_Wonder Occasional commenter

    Did I say that?
    Spoofer4114 likes this.
  6. WB

    WB Lead commenter

    George Washington clearly supported slavery as he owned slaves
    Should he be removed from Mount Rushmore?

    If you look close enough, pretty much very historical figure will have held views and attitudes that are abhorrent by the standards of today.

    ACOYEAR8 Star commenter

    This behaviour is pure iconoclasm and it's the righteousness of those statue pullers that irks. The whiter than white keen to get their faces in the picture along with the black people who have walked past these statues probably thousands of times without even looking up from their smartphones.
    These statues are just ephemera, and like Ozymandias, their relevance and all they ever stood for will whisper away across the sands of time.

    "Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
  8. Kandahar

    Kandahar Star commenter

    Better still...bulldoze London. Plant a forest in its place.

    That'll get rid of BLM.
    Jonntyboy, lexus300 and alex_teccy like this.
  9. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Those indignant black people.

    LiamD likes this.
  10. smoothnewt

    smoothnewt Star commenter

    I have to agree.
    I also agree with Professor Geoff Palmer of Heriot-Watt University who was speaking widely on TV yesterday in respect of the Dundas statue in Edinburgh. A black human rights activist, he stated that "you remove the statue, you remove the deed". Far better to leave the statues in situ and add a plaque outlining their full role in our history.
    Ro13, WB, monicabilongame and 12 others like this.
  11. ACOYEAR8

    ACOYEAR8 Star commenter

    They're angry, indignant, emotional, aggrieved.. now. It isn't a radical suggestion that since we supposedly live in a country where the voice of people can be heard through channels that ultimately lead to change that these people use those channels to bring about change. I object to people parking in front of my house, I can't get out. I don't take a hammer and smash the car.
  12. Sally006

    Sally006 Senior commenter

    Forgive the duplication here as I have posted this on another thread but feel it is better placed here.

    I’m just starting to wonder about how we judge people from the past. Burning heretics was an appalling thing, transatlantic slavery equally horrific, but most of the people at the time just did not see it this way. They accepted it as the norm. Not all, there were some humanitarians amongst them that did see these cruel, unjust practices for what they were such as Wilberforce and Newton and brought about change.

    Nelson was a man of his time when the slave trade existed. He was also a military leader who protected English people from the threat of Napoleonic invasion. He gave his life in the pursuit of it. Queen Victoria was the ultimate symbol of British Imperialism that in its own expansion subjugated the populations around the globe. They thought they were doing good. Some aspects probably were many were bad but do we start shouting for statues of Victoria to be taken down?

    Abolitionists like Wilberforce had a long long battle to bring about change by the establishment and an even longer struggle to change public awareness and attitude. People who were slave traders did also change. Look at John Newton. He changed but he was a slave trader. His hymn “Amazing Grace” is all about this. Would someone say that because he started out as slave trader we never sing it or play it?

    it seems to me that we are surrounded bymonuments and statues that reflect the exploits of people from the past. A time when attitudes were very different to now. What we need is acknowledgement of the change and progress that has occurred. To argue we are “no further on” in terms of attitudes than 500, 200 years ago is just nonsense. What is vital is context andeducation and using these monuments to help enlighten.

    People think of the transatlantic slave trade as something that just occurred in the 18th/19th centuries - it was going on for 2 centuries before that when the Spanish realised that the indigenous population of South America (ironically weakened by the spread of measles from the Europeans) were not strong enough for the mining of minerals they desired. They looked to West Africa and traded slaves. The trade to the Caribbean when the desire for sugar came later, the trade to the US with the desire for cotton later still. In fact I get the impression that an awful lot of people have very little knowledge of the history and to me it should be taught. I do a whole topic on it with my 10 year olds and had to reallyfight to keep it as Primary schools are under pressure to stick to the traditional topics of Tudors and Romans. I’m so glad I kept it on our historycurriculum and I defy any Ofsted inspector to challenge it now.
    Jonntyboy, Ro13, WB and 10 others like this.
  13. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Desperate Dan statue in Dundee has been placed under police protection after militant vegans threatened to pull it down.

    It's thought there is little actual danger as the vegans are struggling to get their strength up...
  14. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Now? Okay...
  15. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    Indignant ... an alternative word for angry.
    Black ... a common descriptor for people with sub-Saharan ancestry
    People ... indicating human beings

    A google search indicates 208 million uses of the word 'angry' in association with BLM.

    Remember, you need to click "report" now.
  16. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Many athletes are now going vegan. Several footballers have gone vegan. It's the way forward. Good for us, good for the planet. And no issues with strength.
  17. Wanda_the_Wonder

    Wanda_the_Wonder Occasional commenter

    theworm123 likes this.
  18. Morninglover

    Morninglover Star commenter

    'Some athletes'...

    'A small number of footballers...'

    'it's one way forward...'

    Just think we need to be accurate here! ;)
    Kartoshka, WB, Kandahar and 3 others like this.
  19. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Thank you for turning up and contributing poster.

    But please desist from making such accusations. They are not correct.
  20. MyOrchid

    MyOrchid Established commenter

    Stonehenge was more than likely constructed primarily by men. Perhaps someone with knowledge of it's history can tell us whether they were likely to be white, have kept slaves and discriminated against women. If so, should it be pulled down as well?

    The Egyptians and Romans kept slaves. There go the pyramids and the Collosium.

    How far back do you want to go?

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