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Sexual Harassment - When is enough, enough?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by JosieWhitehead, Nov 3, 2017.

  1. Jude Fawley

    Jude Fawley Lead commenter

    What do you mean?
  2. gruoch

    gruoch Occasional commenter

    But what's in the news, Hollywood, MPs, is all about abuse of power. Sex has little to do with it, other than as a weapon.
    No-one seems to be using Mrs May or used Mrs T as the object of their power playing - it's always about women (and men) who are perceived to be in a position where complaining would harm their employment prospects. Or university lecturers who promise a student a First if they sleep with them or a 3rd if they don't.
    Oh - and I also had that driving instructor who thought he needed to teach me to drive with one hand.
    vannie, needabreak, emerald52 and 2 others like this.
  3. jonkers

    jonkers New commenter

    I had that driving instructor too! Was yours called Colin who also smoked like a chimney? I was 17 and would be horrified if it happened to my daughters now but back then it just seemed normal. One of my lecturers at college used to cop a grope at any opportunity and rub up against us in practicals, we just thought he was a dirty old man and laughed it off afterwards.
    My eldest works in London and has to take crowded tube trains and often encounters inappropriate/'accidental' touching from men. When I told my 88 year old Dad he told me that my mother and others of her generation used to carry hat pins which could be used to good effect but you'd probably be arrested today.
    I suppose that there are two disparate things. The out and out grope or inappropriate behaviour usually from someone in power and the flirtation, compliment from someone who is just trying to be nice. It seems to be a complete minefield.
    emerald52 likes this.
  4. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    I was just about to post something similar. It's a fundamental misunderstanding to see this as people not understanding how to flirt or ask someone out. It's not about someone making clumsy but genuine advances.
    Noja, Laphroig, Didactylos4 and 3 others like this.
  5. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    Are you not missing 'again'?
  6. Jude Fawley

    Jude Fawley Lead commenter

    Why on earth would anyone think about touching anyone else? They might not have had a wash!

    I think I'll get some hat pins.

    But then I never go near people.

    I'm struggling with this because I hate that it happens and it needs to be stamped out but I can't get my head round why anybody does this stuff in the first place.

    My advice is that if you do meet anybody keep a good bit of distance between you. Enough so you don't have to shout but could if you needed to. About five metres minimum.

    And if you do meet them again, do the same, again.
  7. EmanuelShadrack

    EmanuelShadrack Lead commenter

    Nicely put Jude :D
  8. cheesypop

    cheesypop Occasional commenter

    Exactly the same with me. It was over 20 years ago and I wouldn’t suddenly decide to complain about it now either.
    lexus300 likes this.
  9. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    It's a good job Trump isn't a British MP, isn't it?

    The focus in the US seems to be on sexual harassment in the entertainment world - I wonder if allegations will spread to the political sphere there. In which case, will all those women who have already accused Trump speak up again?
  10. EmanuelShadrack

    EmanuelShadrack Lead commenter

    I agree. I wouldn't dream of behaving as some of our elders have in the past. It makes me think of some strange club, of which I was never a member.

    I remember an ex telling me about the experiences she'd had whilst working in an office in (I think) the eighties. I was surprised that this sort of thing genuinely happened. I thought it was restricted to Carry On films and the like.
  11. kittylion

    kittylion Established commenter

    I have heard about the groping and similar incidents on the tube - it sounds sickening and I feel so sorry for those who have to brave this on the way to and from work every day.

    I remember having a horrendous time in the mid-seventies (when I spent a year in and around Paris) when I (and my friends) simply couldn't travel by Metro or walk down a street without revolting harrassment of one kind or another. Men stopping their cars and trying to get us to get in, following us from shop to shop and waiting outside until we came out- sometimes even following us in and commenting on what we were buying - usually clothes. This happened to me in broad daylight when I was on my own. They used to make comments to each other (they were generally in groups) about our appearance and probable morals. I learned not to make eye contact with them ever or to answer apart from monosyllables (usually "no"). As soon as we crossed the channel all this overt harrassment stopped.

    I was also on a bus in my teens when a bus conductor put his hand up my skirt and had a good rummage around. I got up and stood by the door until the next stop and never told anyone. I thought they would just tell me my skirt was too short (it was the mid-sixties when everyone wore mini-skirts - well, women did anyway).

    Until a few years ago I had hoped that things had improved but everything sounds as bad as ever.
    frangipani123 and emerald52 like this.
  12. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    I think it's about what people think they can get away with no matter who they are. I have said before on other posts that there are often few if any consequences to treating other people poorly in intimate or in this case abusive sexual situations. It is in the name of freedoms, the freedom to hold a meeting in a hotel for example, when actually they aren't cash strapped and could fairly hold their "interviews" in offices open to staff and or the public, lets face it most successful businesses these days are fairly open plan with lots of glass to improve the feeling of space, light and visibility. Those people who abuse their power do so because they can and the consequences thus far have been few if any.
    emerald52 likes this.
  13. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Indeed, I'm pretty sure Sid James and Barbra Windsor though funny at the time wouldn't be considered as funny these days... or would they? Films like 9-5 also highlighted and made light of it although had a rather different moral to the story in the end.
  14. EmanuelShadrack

    EmanuelShadrack Lead commenter

    I can perhaps enlighten you here Jude. This is just my take on it - others may well disagree.

    For many people, it's a pleasant feeling to know that someone is attracted to them. You get feelings of validation, and a little ego boost etc. When someone is immune to your charms, it sows a seed of insecurity, and a desire to explain away. That's why your admirers (presumably women) might think you're gay.
    People do it because they quite like it, as Didactylos said. For someone with no interest though, I expect it can come across as bizarre. I can sympathize - I didn't care much for it all either when I was a small child. Since adolescence though, I've never had the total disinterest that I had then.
    Didactylos4 likes this.
  15. slingshotsally

    slingshotsally Star commenter

    That happened to me, too. I was 21, though.

    The man got out of the car, and attempted to chat me up. At which point I asked him why he thought he had any chance at all? He was poorly dressed, had unwashed greasy hair and looked like a heroin addict. It might have escaped his attention, but there was a security camera over there (I made that bit up), so would he please leave me alone.

    I then headed over to the nearest house and started banging on the door- I have no idea whose it was, but he'd left at that point.
  16. Duke of York

    Duke of York Star commenter

    It's amazing that mankind ever came to procreate and dominate the world, if the male of the species has been winding up the females since the dawn of time, ain't it?

    I wholeheartedly agree that men must treat women with respect, (and vice-versa) but at some point in time, the question the question needs to be raised whether or not any sexual congress might take place.

    How about those females who feel they are being abused, either intentionally or otherwise, setting out an unambiguous courtship routine they would feel comfortable with? This needs to include the precise wording in conversations and sequence of physical interactions.

    Having that set out, the matter can be discussed by other females to get their input on whether they have the patience to be courted in the PC manner or will interject at some point "fuxache, will you bleeding get on with it before my husband comes home?"
  17. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Oh I meant you don't need another person to be aroused or sexually fulfilled *not sure if that was what you were asking about ... if it was about the latter bit about being more to it, I meant there must be something more to your desire to be alone than just an intellectual decision to keep away from intimate relationships and from your subsequent post about hygiene it appears I was right... and I concur with the repulsion of hot sweaty bodies exchanging bodily fluids... no wait... no I am not repulsed at all *damnit! :oops:
  18. secretsiren

    secretsiren Star commenter

    When my now husband and I first met, we struck up a conversation. He said hi, I said hi and we smiled at one another. The smile and the clear intent to continue the conversation was a signal that his attention was perfectly acceptable to me.

    If he'd yelled 'cor, love to smoosh those melons, luv' or 'I'd love to bounce my balls off your bum, darling' as the men in the car did, then the signals would have been very different.

    I don't buy into this whole ludicrous scenario of men never being able to pay a woman a compliment or flirt with them without being thought of as a perv. There's some very simple rules:
    - if you don't know them and they're on public transport/in a club/anywhere else on earth, then a compliment should not involve anything remotely connected to the size of their breasts or what you'd like to do to them. It should also never involve physical contact until the other person has indicated through a smile, a gesture, a pull of the shirt towards them, an inclination of the head or other subtle signal that they are happy for the connection to take place;
    - don't call out of your car window - this is intimidating and unpleasant;
    - don't respond to someone telling you they're not interested with insults and petulance;
    - don't rub your genitals up against people while they're standing next to you.

    Not difficult, is it, to flirt in a reasonable manner? After all, if it was that difficult then we'd have gone back to arranged marriages. But rubbing a stranger's knee in the workplace and making a sexual comment when you have no evidence that they're interested in you is not flirtation - it is harassment.
  19. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Exactly, and the fact that there are many people who do not behave this way leads me to think those that do have extremely poor judgment or are simply in some way severely broken. *Quite possibly including the famous crotch grabbing leader of a rather large Western country.
  20. Jude Fawley

    Jude Fawley Lead commenter

    Conservative M P Charlie Elphicke has just been suspended. That's the sort of thing the tories like.

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