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Selective schooling has negative impact on UK children, say world education experts

Discussion in 'Education news' started by JosieWhitehead, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. JosieWhitehead

    JosieWhitehead Lead commenter

    Selective school systems such as grammar streams lower children's expectations and impact negatively on the wider education system, world experts have said.


    As the Government pushes forward plans to create new free schools and expand the grammar system in England, a major global report by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) suggests students attending selective schools are more likely to be subject to high levels of anxiety and poor self-esteem.
  2. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    I don't hold with selective education, however my concern is that our serving PM simply doesn't care to look at the evidence and if re-elected will continue with her pet grammar school plan. This is clearly the result of people having been to school thinking they know all there is to know about education, while relying on their limited experience and occasionally that of similar advisors.

    We have a nation of potentially very talented young people and we should be looking to bring them all up to a good basic (and I mean old levels 2/3) education to facilitate their future decisions about their ways forward, so setting them up against each other for no reason other to embed the idea of competition at an early age is frankly pointless. We no longer have working coal mines and few factories so the majority of school leavers without any particular talent simply need a good basic education, how can it be so difficult and complicated?
    JosieWhitehead likes this.
  3. JosieWhitehead

    JosieWhitehead Lead commenter

    Oh, I do so agree with you. I'm behind you 100%. I've been an FE teacher and taken children from every type of background. I taught secretarial work and many of my students came with degrees, having spent 3 years in university. They needed secretarial qualifications to become PAs then - but they all fitted well into my classes, working together and passing their examinations in new subjects to them all, very satisfactorily. I didn't actually notice any difference between those coming from university to those coming from comprehensives - - - but perhaps others on here might have had different experiences. The main thing was that they came in with a good standard of English language.
  4. aypi

    aypi Occasional commenter

    "Is OEDC not equally harmful to children's education?"
    Said a non-expert.
  5. Benbamboo

    Benbamboo Occasional commenter

    As a bit of a stickler, while responding to the recent consultation on primary assessment, I took the time to read the supporting evidence in the footnotes. One was a link to a report from the OECD which the DfE used to back up its statement that "external accountability [is] particularly important for the least advantaged." I.e. the least advantaged will benefit if we do tests, so we should do more tests.

    The report also made other recommendations:
    - Don't select children by ability until 'upper secondary' as early selection "exacerbates inequalities, without raising average performance."
    - use funding strategies, such as weighted funding formula, that take into consideration that the instructional costs of disadvantaged students may be higher.
    - making academic and vocational tracks equivalent by improving the quality of vocational
    education and training
    - Attract, support and retain high quality teachers (my bold)

    Some very selective reading went into analysing that report. It was like me trying to find quotes to support what I was saying in college essays - any old line, even taken out of context, would do as long as it showed I could jump through hoops and quote sources.
  6. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    Prepares them for zero hours contracts and jobs at Sports Direct. Probably what they want. Sadly, I'm not being tongue in cheek. It feels at times as if the present Government want minimum wage / ZHC workers to toil for companies owned by people overseas.
    At the moment my frame of mind is that if a politician says something they probably mean the opposite.
    palmtree100 likes this.
  7. schoolsout4summer

    schoolsout4summer Lead commenter

    The way that our education system is organised, supports and reinforces our class system.
    palmtree100 likes this.
  8. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Lead commenter

    I believe that the only evidence our PM needs is the simple fact that Grammar Schools are part of the UKIP manifesto. So as well as shafting Labour when the opportunity arises she does the same to another electoral threat.

    Anyway, after a successful win in June, we will hear the cry "We have a clear mandate from the electorate to re-introduce Grammar Schools". Then our only hope will be that there are enough non-rabid Tory MPs who care enough to apply some common sense, or even evidence.
    palmtree100 likes this.
  9. binaryhex

    binaryhex Lead commenter

    Anecdotal evidence from my career:

    I've worked in two grammars and half a dozen Bog Standard schools. What grammars provide is a calm environment where 99% of students want to learn and nearly all aim high. The range of student ability is fairly narrow so teaching is relatively easy. Poor behaviour is not tolerated and dealt with quickly.

    What Bog Standard schools provide is often a chaotic classroom environment. Only 90% of students want to learn. The 10% who don't, disrupt class after class with their poor behaviour, which is unmanageable for a variety of reasons, but is often excused and tolerated by SLT. The ability range in many classes is often so wide that teachers teach a notional 'average' student so everyone loses out.
    dunnocks and install like this.
  10. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Do you know what? Up until I read this post I was anti grammar schools, I saw them as ideologically unsound and those who could not manage the untenable comp workload of wide ranging mixed ability teaching as unfit; however what you describe is not as I thought, you have provided a succinct description of the alternative, so I may have to reconsider, since ideology doesn't always get the best job done.
    dunnocks and Flere-Imsaho like this.
  11. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    The trouble is we have to admit that those who get into Grammar schools aren't necessarily the brightest, they often simply have the means to aquire support and tutoring. Just as outstanding schools often are not actually outstanding simply because their t&l is exceptional, appologies to those working in them who think they are actually exceptional. If we accept this premise then call them something else it could work.
  12. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Ha apologies also for my typos.
  13. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Occasional commenter

    Experts/ brexperts.... My foot.

    We will be paying even less (sic) attention to those, mainly foreign, snake oil peddlers once we reach the sunlit uplands of "controlling our own borders" in just under 2 years time.

    Anyone here want to invest in my plan to reopen the local slate quarry?
    1 person likes this.
  14. Geoff Thomas

    Geoff Thomas Lead commenter

    I think the Finnish education system is regarded as (one of) the best.

    Do they have tests, selection, separate schooling?

    Course they expletive deleted don't.
  15. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    They may well have a little more balance in other aspects of society where education is perceived as worthwhile not futile.
  16. bessiesmith

    bessiesmith Occasional commenter

    It is clear that what you describe is not a satisfactory system - and I know that many schools like this exist. However, introducing grammar schools, merely 'rescues' say 25 or 30% of students - in other words, around a third of those who want to learn. This leaves 2/3 of students who want to learn trapped in an even worse school than before.

    It would be much better to deal with or remove the problem 10%. There are various ways that might tackle this - specialist schools for behaviour issues / 'behaviour units' within schools / making parents take some responsibility for poorly behaved students etc. Whatever policy is adopted it needs to provide a solution so that EVERY SINGLE child who wants to learn can do so. Grammar schools do not provide this - and since Theresa May is surely smart enough to have thought all this through, it suggests that she is only interested in the privileged few.
    palmtree100 and (deleted member) like this.
  17. JosieWhitehead

    JosieWhitehead Lead commenter

    Perhaps the uncivilized might appreciate being moved to a classroom where there is a cane in the corner. That usually helps them with their problem - or it did to those of us who lived through the administration of the cane, the ruler and anything else at hand.

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