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Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by bigjimmy2, May 19, 2019.

  1. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    There's been a big push in schools in recent years to combat anti-LGBT views. This is all fine and well and no-one can really argue against it although some people have mentioned it seems to get rammed down your throat sometimes.

    However, isn't sectarianism a much bigger problem in this wee country, affecting many more people than all other forms of discrimination?

    I would suggest that sectarianism isn't being tracked seriously because it isn't glamorous enough. Which politician, local or national, would risk their career by pushing for a prolonged campaign against sectarianism? Same for HTs.

    Just a thought.
  2. aypi

    aypi Senior commenter

    Perhaps it will happen on the same day as Education Committees do not have religious appointees?
  3. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Established commenter

    Sectarianism comes from the terrace and the Orange Lodge, not the pulpit.

    As to the OP, people don't kill themselves because of sectarianism. They do because of homophobic and transphobic attitudes. That's why it's more urgent.
  4. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Let's not forget the family either

    There is a minority that think that they are supreme to others because they exude the west of Scotland protestant tradition. And this "we are the people" supremacist mentality is passed on down the generations. The same minority never go anywhere near the Kirk and also forget that their ancestors were Catholics pre Henry VIII..

    Thankfully this has been pretty much eradicated from public institutions (the police, the judiciary) but it's still there in the home and in the pub.

    I speak as an atheist. I have absolutely no time for the Kirk or the chapel.

    We need to start prosecuting people more frequently for spouting their bile (on both sides of the divide) instead of the "it's just part of the culture" argument; banning their dreadful bigoted marches (both sides); bring in strict liability at football to get rid of these ghastly songs on the terraces and then we can start talking about having only one type of school, without any influence from any type of Christian church.
    autoq and bigjimmy2 like this.
  5. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    It's archaic, isn't it?
    autoq likes this.
  6. autoq

    autoq New commenter

    One of my regular rants to others in the staffroom involves exactly this. The divots who stand around "criticising" the football fans for the sectarian abuse yet who really do not appear to understand where much of this ignorant tribal daftness comes from..... well for the 1000th time... it partly comes from an Educational system which intentionally, wilfully and deliberately encourages religous division.
    The title of this thread should surely be
    A. WE SHOULDN'T. It is a disgrace.
    I am all in favour of recognising/encouraging/celebrating religous/sexual/social/cultural/etc differences (after all that is what makes life so interesting surely)... so the idea of actively segregating people in this country I find quite shameful.
    Having a system which appears to encourage the dark-ages attitudes of those backward-looking sectarian people (lets face it, many of whom probably don't actually go to church very often) both daft and very hypocritical....
    xmal likes this.
  7. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    In the west of Scotland, most kids in an area go to the same nursery between the ages of 3 and 5. They will play with anyone regardless of colour, creed etc - they're just weans who don't know better

    They then reach P1 age and are then sent off to different primaries where they then become "proddies" and "kaflicks". It's nuts.

    Although I don't actually think the primaries on either side are responsible, they try and do the best for the kids in front of them to make them good humans. It's the family and they way they are reared which is still the biggest problem.
  8. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Established commenter

    I don't think faith schools are the problem. If they were then England would have the same issue but they don't. I went to a CofE primary. When I got to secondary most of my new friends had gone to the RC primary. It just wasn't an issue, but maybe that's because most of us were regular church attenders rather than wearers of blue or green scarves. Of course in Scotland I'm a piskie so that means I can get flack from bigots on either side :D (though I've only encountered it from protestants).
  9. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    I would argue that sectarianism is a bigger problem than anti-LGBT bigotry. Of course, suicide is awful and it would belittle the argument if anyone argued that A is worse than B because one side doesn't "do" suicide. Having said that, I'm sure people have actually killed themselves because of sectarianism, although I offer no actual evidence.

    Sectarianism has been going on for tens if not hundreds of years. Sectarianism splits communities and families, causing untold misery for probably millions of people over many, many years. People have been killed because of their belief in a particular flavour of god.

    There isn't as much sectarianism as in the past and we are a more tolerant nation than before but we still have a long way to go. People realise that protestants/catholics are pretty much the same as them and the other side becomes acceptable. However, a large core on both sides that thinks otherwise still remains.
  10. moscowbore

    moscowbore Star commenter

    I do not understand why football clubs are not held accountable for the sectarian songs heard at every match. Legislation for this precise scenario was thrown out by Hollyrood because it unfairly victimised football fans, apparently.

    My understanding is that sectarian songs are banned. They are illegal. Why are people not being arrested and clubs not being fined?
    Effinbankers and bigjimmy2 like this.
  11. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    Fans are not being arrested because the polis wading into thousands of fans to arrest a few bigots could create more threatening behaviour (a riot:?): that's what I think.

    A similar question could be asked as to why TV companies do not show or comment on sectarian behaviour, chants or displays. Again, I think this could be because highlighting it on TV could cause mayhem in pubs up and down the country where games are shown.

    The legislation was specifically targeted at football fans, and I think that's where it fell down.
  12. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    I think the mere fact that we have separate state schools based on religious affiliation certainly contributes to sectarianism.

    In the West of Scotchland we have a mini Northern Ireland because of Scots protestants emigrating to Ireland and Irish Catholics emigrating here. Maybe not so many English have the same links to Northern Ireland as the West of Scotchland? I don't know, tbh.

    No idea what a piskie is.
  13. halfajack

    halfajack Occasional commenter

    The amount of LGBT awareness work will still vary between schools. I'm going to guess this has recently started in your school to provoke the creation of this thread. I think the increase of this work in Scotland's schools is thanks mainly to the TIE campaign who have punched well above their weight when it's come to their campaigning which has been driven by passion and dedication (much of the ground work was done by two guys giving up their own free time to visit schools and deliver assemblies for nothing, as well as all the other work they've done). I have to say, your suggestion that it's to do with glamour is incredibly insulting.

    There are organisations which support anti-sectarianism work in schools too but perhaps this has had less attention in some places over the last few years, much like there has been, I think, a decrease in anti-racism work. The reason for this is that this kind of work being done in schools depends on individuals driving it. In short, if you think more anti-sectarianism work needs to be done in your school you may need to be the one to step up and lead it. That's what I did with LGBT and anti-racism education in my own school. It was hard work at times and I faced a lot of resistance from management (not so much for the anti-racism stuff...) but I saw a problem and realised nobody else was going to do much about it until I kicked it off.
  14. beharder

    beharder Occasional commenter

    Not being approved for a job at a Catholic school because you are not a Catholic is the last piece of legal discrimination left in Scotland.

    As others have said get all religous fairy stories out of schools.
    Effinbankers and bigjimmy2 like this.
  15. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Established commenter

    Actually lots of discrimination is perfectly legal. Try getting a job playing Lady MacBeth if you present as male.

    Not thinking that the Roman Catholic faith is a fairy story is a genuine occupational requirement for working in a RC school. Besides, there are plenty of secular schools where you can practice your sneering atheism in peace.
    bigjimmy2 likes this.
  16. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    Nothing really prompted me starting the thread other than the thought that, in the west at least, there remains a large core of tolerance of sectarianism. My school has, for years now, promoted anti-LGBT rights. For various reasons I have no interest in stepping up in my school.

    Sectarianism is a societal problem and national/local government should be doing more about it. A good start would be local authorities banning those silly summer marches where the participants think it's Halloween. Closely followed by ridding ourselves of state RC schools - but that's far too controversial even to be considered seriously.
  17. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Established commenter

    It's controversial because there's no evidence that Catholic schools contribute to sectarianism.
  18. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Lead commenter

    Perfectly correct there's no evidence . . . but it's still apartheid etc and sends a message to people of a very young age that "different" people go to "different" schools for an arbitrary historical reason.
  19. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Established commenter

    No, they go to different schools because if faith is a part of your life then it's reasonable for it to be part of your schooling as well. Calling it apartheid is ridiculous because no-one is prevented from practising Roman Catholicism and sending their kids to a RC school if they so choose. Likewise there is nothing to prevent parents choosing to send their kids to secular schools.
  20. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Do we have such a thing in Scotland as a secular school?

    I work in a non denominational midden but we used to be marched down to the local kirk at the end of term to bash the bishop (or whatever the equivalent is in the CoS).

    Needless to say the weans voted with their feet and walked on past the church to the chippy, despite screams of disapproval from SMT.

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