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Schools MUST limit teachers to 48 hours per week

Discussion in 'Education news' started by BigFrankEM, May 15, 2019.

  1. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    That at least is the common sense reaction to the latest EU court ruling on working hours.



    At long long long long last English teachers will be saved from themselves !

    Great news to start the new academic year in September

    But hang on. After the October half term break.........
    BetterNow and Mrsmumbles like this.
  2. WB

    WB Senior commenter

    Don't hold your breath.

    Nothing will stop some of the younger teaches throwing away their right to a work life balance and dragging the rest of us down with them.
    BetterNow, Ds2d12, Jamvic and 8 others like this.
  3. bertiehamster

    bertiehamster New commenter

    This is exactly the point. People with not other life treating a job as if it's a hobby. It isn't, it's a means of paying off a mortgage debt.
  4. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Only teachers directed time counts towards the 48 hour limit so this court ruling changes nothing. There have been previous threads about this. The rule about employers tracking time isn't new, it's been in UK law for some 20 years. I know unions are often criticised on here for failing to stand up for teachers rights but if schools really were legally required to record all working time outside directed time and ensuring it didn't exceed 48 hours in total surely at least one union or the DFE would have mentioned it by now?
    BetterNow and JohnJCazorla like this.
  5. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    i) Would that this were true !

    ii) If it is only (or indeed "mainly") the younger teachers at fault, who was to blame when this began to get really out of hand, viz just after the implementation of brylcreemKen's Great (sic) Education Reform Act ?
    stonerose likes this.
  6. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    To save you overloading Microsoft and/ orProfessor Wiki, it was 1989.
    stonerose likes this.
  7. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    A: & B: [*] I am far from sure of that. (Hence the post !)

    The essence of this judgement is...... that it is new.

    It was only reported yesterday.

    I have seen other reports which indicate strongly that "work done at home" is indeed now part of the 48 hour limit

    But, it only became the law "yesterday" (No I am not unaware that there will inevitably be a period of transition whilst the new situation is assimilated into 28/7 individual state legislations.)

    B only If only I could share your apparent faith in English teachers' unions
  8. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    This is the link below to the 2 page press release of the ECJ.

    Nothing there about "selfless English teachers excepted" as far as I can see.

    This is the main paragraph, I reckon (highlighting as per press release):

    Consequently, in order to ensure the effectiveness of the rights provided for in the Working Time Directive and the Charter, the Member States must require employers to set up an objective, reliable and accessible system enabling the duration of time worked each day by each worker to be measured. It is for the Member States to define the specific arrangements for implementing such a system, in particular the form that it must take, having regard, as necessary, to the particular characteristics of each sector of activity concerned, or the specific characteristics of certain undertakings concerning, inter alia, their size.


    Mark you, as I said earlier, after October half-term, self-harm will again rule the English state school teachers' roost, it would seem.
    JohnJCazorla likes this.
  9. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    Thanks for that quote but I strongly suspect that Damian "The Teachers' Friend" Hind will suddenly realise that academies are deserving of even more Friendship and will find a way to make sure that teachers true working hours are not calculated.
    stonerose and slstrong123 like this.
  10. WB

    WB Senior commenter

    I'm sure I read once that total hours worked is averaged over something like 10 weeks so that foactories can cope wirh busy periods etc. As we get a holiday every 6-8 we will never qualify.

    Can post a link saying where it became 'law' yesterday.

    Anyway, I've booked marked this thread and will post again in October when I have more time on my hands.
    ridleyrumpus likes this.
  11. stonerose

    stonerose Occasional commenter

    Sadly I do not need the above services.:( As Max Boyce used to shout, "I was there!" and have witnessed the debacle from the front lines and semi side lines. I am now watching ed. sec. after ed. sec. try to tinker with the structure to keep the whole shuddering edifice from collapse.

    Partly, one of the main problems that I see now as clearly as when I was a full time teacher is this: over decades stemming from that time, 'additions' have been included (rarely at root class room level involvement, but always directed eventually at the unfortunate classroom practitioner) of a whole ruling class of genuine and quasi, amateur educationalists basically telling teachers what to do, when, how much etc. etc. and (oh joyously) how to do it. Often without said ed. hierarchy having to share the same physical space with us as we try and make some sense of these initiatives and innovations firstly for ourselves, and then for our students.

    They have their priorities and agendas but crucially what is lacking is any consensus betwixt them all. A hymn sheer does not appear to exist for them (and for us) to sing to. To sum up: stop putting in more chefs to 'spoil the broth' and start putting in more 'many hands make light work'. May be the hours could then reduce

    I'll even suggest a start for this load lightening venture: ofsted. :D:D:D
  12. Oldfashioned

    Oldfashioned Senior commenter

    It will be a cold day in hell before I work that many hours a week.
  13. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    The judgement concerned the Directive as it had been implemented in Spanish law. The requirement on employers in the UK has been there since the start - paragraph 9, Working Time Regulations 1998.
    irs1054 likes this.
  14. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

  15. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Star commenter

    Working time directive limits working hours to 48 per week averaged over the months (IIRC) so we never qualify as we have a holiday in that time.

    Anyway I am not sure what the fuss is about, in response to a grievance, my schools HR manager wrote that there is no expectation for a teacher to work outside of directed time....
  16. Deirds

    Deirds Senior commenter

    My husband used to work on oil rigs doing 2 weeks continuous 12 hour shifts. The 48 hour rule is done in averages over time. Given there are technically 13 week's holiday it's hard to see how teachers would qualify, especially as a lot is off site.

    The only way I can see working hours reduced would be if all work was expected to be done on site 8am -5pm.
    agathamorse likes this.
  17. ajrowing

    ajrowing Lead commenter

    Averaged over 17 weeks (unless you are in a boarding school responsible for boarding care, when slightly different rules apply).

    In the 17 weeks from the beginning of September we typically only have 1 week of half term (and none of us work during that surely!). So in each of the 16 working weeks we could work for 51 hours and average 48 hours over the 17 week period.
    agathamorse likes this.
  18. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    The latest ECJ ruling may require UK employers to keep more detailed records of work that is subject to the 48 hours a week maximum, the government lawyers will have to consider the ruling, but it won't make any difference to teachers overall as non-directed time time doesn't count towards the 48 hours anyway.
    agathamorse likes this.
  19. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Star commenter

    Are you sure about this?

    If that is indeed the case then it makes a mockery of the WTD as any unscrupulous business would just come up with a model that was similar to circumvent the law.
  20. ajrowing

    ajrowing Lead commenter

    It depends if time outside directed time is
    • unpaid overtime you’ve volunteered for, eg staying late to finish something of
    Which does not count towards the 48hours.
    See https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/calculating-your-working-hours

    I think a school would find it hard to argue that we have volunteered to do the many and varied pointless data entry tasks they ask us to do. Of course if I am volunteering to do that overtime, then I can also choose not to do it and the employer can't do anything about it. Part of the solution to long working hours is probably ensuring that we are all educated as much as possible in the law.
    agathamorse and JohnJCazorla like this.

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