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School want evidence of teaching experience - pay dilemma

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by enthuseteach, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. enthuseteach

    enthuseteach New commenter

    I was extremely pleased to have been offered a new position at a great school. However, I recieved my offer letter today and was shocked to find that they are not going to pay me at the level I was expecting. I am an experienced teacher; I crossed the threshold some years ago. I spent some years out of teaching then returned to the profession, first as a supply teacher and then as a teacher at an independent school. I then spent the last year working as a supply teacher again whilst looking for my perfect post. I have queried the pay and they have said that they came to a decision based on the rate I was paid on supply. They say that in order to be paid more I need to provide performance management evidence of satisfactory completion of each year of teaching experience in a state school. As it was so long ago that I reached my present level on the scale I don't think I will have any paperwork to prove my experience. Anyone else been in this position? What to do? I really want the job but feel that going down this far on the scale is unfair and detrimental to my future pay level.
    install likes this.
  2. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    Off the top of my head, the easiest way to demonstrate how much pay you’ve been on is by printing off your employment history on your pension benefit statement.
    Mrsmumbles, install, Pomza and 5 others like this.
  3. mothorchid

    mothorchid Star commenter

    Stingy b*ggers.
    I don't know exactly how to help - thier request is so very specific it might even have been designed to make it impossible. @PeterQuint's suggestion is excellent, and I wonder if you might have old payslips, since you must have passed muster to have been paid at the level you were on. (Tax records might be possible here too.)
    Union may have other ideas.
    Perhaps if you focus on proving what you earned, rather than why you earned it, this becomes an easier issue to handle?
  4. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    But they don't have to pay you what you were on before because pay is no longer portable

    You might have to do the threshold again at your new school.
    strawbs, BetterNow, les25paul and 6 others like this.
  5. shevington

    shevington Occasional commenter

    Speak to previous schools, but a problem now we are in the middle of the holidays. Do you have Bank Statements or salary slips to prove what you were earning ?
    install and enthuseteach like this.
  6. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    It doesn't matter - they can pay you whatever salary they choose

    This should have been discussed at interview.
  7. foxtail3

    foxtail3 Star commenter

    If you’ve been out of teaching for a while and have worked in an independent school, I expect the only information the new school will have regarding salary, will be from your recent supply experience.

    As @peakster says, schools can pay what they want.
  8. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    P60s, payslips, letters from previous schools confirming your salary etc.
    install and enthuseteach like this.
  9. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    Yep. No pay portability. It's a marketplace now.

    Don't even bother looking for evidence. Just haggle. Say you can't possibly do it for less than such and such and see if you can get them to up it a bit.

    But your UPS is gone with the wind, I'm afraid. They can pay you what they fancy. Should have been discussed at the interview.
    BetterNow, les25paul, install and 7 others like this.
  10. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    I lost my UPS point when I joined my current school - hopefully I'll get it back next year.
  11. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    What OP was previously paid seems to be bit of a red herring, as what the new is asking about is PM outcomes: "They say that in order to be paid more I need to provide performance management evidence of satisfactory completion of each year of teaching experience in a state school ".

    If evidence of PMs is impossible to obtain I can see that proving that, for example, you passed the threshold onto UPS could be a proxy measure of PM outcomes, but it would be better to present what's actually being asked for if possible. Normally you'd expect to get information on performance from references. Can you get references from the schools you used to work for?
  12. BoldAsBrass

    BoldAsBrass New commenter

    I have to agree with Peakster - pay is no longer portable. Schools are free to set their own pay rates regardless of experience and past pay. If you were 'expecting' your post-threshold salary, you should really have discussed this upon being offered the job or even better, during the interviews process at the 'do you have any questions for us?' stage.

    I myself, have stepped down from SLT within the last 12 months. I was on supply but during every stage, I always discussed my rates of pay and expectations when it came to being paid 'my worth'. It was my non-negotiable. I wasn't prepared to work for peanuts, unless it was day-to-day with no expectations other than turn up, teach, mark the work and go home. Long-term it was £195 a day or I wasn't interested. Being open, up front and prepared to negotiate is the way forward. It secured me a permanent role for September and the school knew I wasn't prepared to accept anything less than UPS3 rate. As I said to the Head, often you get what you pay for - and now she fully agrees with me and tells me I'm worth every penny ;-)

    Hope you get sorted - just have that professional discussion and see how flexible they can be. Budgets are tight so you may have to admit an oversight on your part and be prepared to climb the financial ladder once again - or perhaps not, get negotiating!
  13. enthuseteach

    enthuseteach New commenter

    Thanks for replying everybody; it's really appreciated. I am not expecting to get UPS level; I would be happy on M6 but they are offering much less.
    install likes this.
  14. BoldAsBrass

    BoldAsBrass New commenter

    So there's your negotiating starting point .... given my prior experiences, clearly I am not an NQT or RQT. I have x number of year experience and I would expect to receive a suitable pay rate based on my experiences. I believe that M6 would be a suitable starting point, as prior to this I was already earning x amount per year which is above M6. I would be taking a drop in salary by accepting M6 but I would really like to join the team. How negotiable are you?

    Good luck - sell yourself, don't undersell yourself!
  15. racinginthestreet

    racinginthestreet New commenter

    This school is having your eyes out and they know it.
    I'm appalled that they are saying your pay is based on what you receive as a supply teacher! They've had your CV; they've seen and accepted your experience as desirable. If they are wanting 'evidence' then they really need to explain why on earth they are appointing you based on your interview, references and previous experience state on your CV, but not prepared to pay you appropriately.

    As a starting point, I'd go to them and remind them that as a day-to-day supply teacher your daily rate is significantly different (lower) than a teacher doing all of the added extras that go along with being in a full-time permanent role. I might be on a daily rate of £120, but this would rise under AWR if I was in a long-term position. Therefore, my pay in a permanent role should reflect the AWR amount as a minimum. In my agency, I'm paid £140 per day standard, but AWR would raise that to £190 per day (ish). That takes me to the top of the UPS. Luckily for the school, you are prepared to negotiate, but definitely not lower than your worth.

    Frankly, since contracts have not been agreed you are free to walk away. It depends how much nerve you have.
  16. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    YEs, welcome to the world of pay negotiation, which those who have worked outside education may well have experienced. You need to decide what terms you are prepared to work under and make it clear that you will not take less, maybe starting a little higher up. But to do that, you need to be prepared to walk away. I am, by the way, assuming that you have not verbally accepted the offer as, if you have, you already have a commitment in law.

    Too late now, but it is important to keep your copies of appraisals for just this sort of thing as well as if your performance gets questioned.

    Is the job for next term? If so, the school might find it hard to get somebody else, so a tough stance from you could pay dividends. If you have the nerve, you could tell them your terms, making it clear that you are not prepared to take less. Good luck!
  17. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    I would only risk this strategy if you wanted to find out what unemployment is like
  18. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    Yes, that is a danger. To do it, I think you would need to be pretty confident of getting supply work. But if all teachers simply accept what a school offers, then pay rates for everybody are likely to go down. Of course, it is much easier to negotiate when you are already in a job, and I have done that twice in the past, once with success and once without.
    grumpydogwoman and agathamorse like this.
  19. FollyFairy

    FollyFairy Occasional commenter

    My current job informed me at interview they could not afford to pay me UPS. I was gutted however now that I've completed a year, I've received two pay rises and HT is trying to find money to pay me UPS. If you like the school, try to negotiate to at least M6 and/or ask for other points e.g. SEN/middle management.
  20. Robfreeman

    Robfreeman Occasional commenter

    Sounds like they are being offered m1 if they aren't doing m6 and its much lower according to them being honest it is possible to get more on supply than m1. Also if they are willing to haggle that much and essentially say that's the offer take
    agathamorse likes this.

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